Hi All, In emulation of Pat re. the thread on "the Nottinghamshire Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry on D-Day" I'd like to start a new topic on the short battle career of "24th Lancers" and ask for any relevant info from contributors. I'm interested in what happened to them and where they all went - but while that might entail more than one thread - I thought I had to start somewhere! Also I wouldn't mind seeing the wiki at... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24th_Lancers Updated by someone at some stage, as it seems a bit brief for them at the moment, thought apparently their engagements during WW2 were at... Putot-en-Bessin Villers Bocage Tilly-sur-Seulles Fontenay-le-Pesnel Tessel Wood and Rauray areas Best wishes, Rob
Hi Rob, By all means do start a new thread on the 24th Lancers. Do you know of any books on the Regiment? Regards, Pat
Hello Pat, I'm not Rob but anyway.... Glad to see 24th Lancers as a topic. The one book on them I have is "None Had Lances", which is very good. Happy to hear if there are any more. Cheers, Sean
Here are some books that appear to more specifically relate to the British 24th Lancers that I've seen referenced relatively often, there's probably many others out there that I'm not yet aware of - so it maybe worth posting a note of those that are not yet referenced here: "None Had Lances" - regimental history of the 24th Lancers - Leonard Willis (Probably due a reprint) as there seems to be quite some demand even for 2nd hand versions. http://www.amazon.co.uk/None-Had-Lances-Story-Lancers/dp/0951071807 DAD'S WAR : A TANK COMMANDER IN EUROPE 1944-45 WITH THE XXIV LANCERS AND SHERWOOD RANGERS YEOMANRY (ed 1994) http://biblio.co.uk/book/dads-war-tank-commander-europe-1944/d/764732154 Daleman's War - WW2 Army Royal Tank Regiment 24th Lancers Second World War History http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DALEMANS-WAR-WW2-Army-Royal-Tank-Regiment-24th-Lancers-Second-World-War-History-/350564048766 There seem to be quite a few that deal with the wider war that mention the 24th Lancers either in detail or in passing i.e. Monty's Marauders: The 4th and 8th Armoured Brigades in the Second World War by Patrick Delafore So it might be worth drawing attention to any that shed new light on to the 24th to a newbie in 24th Lancer news. (Nb that there is a Polish 24th Lancer regiment “Hetman Żółkiewskiego” that went on to fight in Normandy after the British 24th's were disbanded so there's a chance potentially for some confusion there. I wonder how confusing this was for troops there at the time!) - I think the Polish arrived in Normandy by the end of July 1944 though so possibly not much. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Armoured_Division_%28Poland%29
Hi Guys, Thanks for all those book links; all very interesting. Just happened to be reading the other day about the Polish 24th Lancers as part of the Tenth Polish Armoured Brigade in a very old edition of 'The Battle of the Falaise Gap' by Eddy Florentin. Going through some BP footage just now - am I correct in that we are only looking for Shermans in relation to the British 24th Lancers - no other tanks? Thanks, Pat
I have one guy at Rennes Hospital with a 24th Lancer Service Number but I could never get verification that he was with them. SGT 319072 Northover, Edward arrived 9 July
Hi Guys, Can anyone ID the British armoured unit in this Critical Past footage? Date: 19th August Location: Ecouche (4.5 Miles SW of Argentan) The building with the two chimneys is still visible today on the left in this Google Maps 'street view'. If we had the unit, it would be possible to know what colour the diamond Regimental HQ sign on the Sherman's turret is and what tone it shows up as in B&W footage. I think blue and yellow will look very similar but this example might give us the edge in future comparisons. Thanks, Pat
Hello Pat The 11th Armoured Division - The Black Bull - liberated Flers about 16 August, then went on "Club Route" and 4 KSLI and Herefords were near to Ecouche on 19 August. Source: The Black Bull - From Normandy to the Baltic with 11th Armoured Division - by Patrick Delaforce. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_Armoured_Division_(United_Kingdom) 159th Infantry Brigade 4th Battalion, King's Shropshire Light Infantry 1st Battalion, Herefordshire Light Infantry 3rd Battalion, Monmouthshire Regiment Apologies for just writing "Club Route", which was symbolised by the Club symbol from playing cards, was the XXX (or 30) Corps route through France and onwards to the end of the war in Europe, under the command of one of our best fighting generals (Lt General Sir Brian "Jorrocks" Horrocks), who did excellent TV programmes when I was a wee bit younger than I am now!! Hope this helps Allan
Hi all, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24th_Lancers "At the start of August 1944 most of remaining 24th Lancers "went to the 23rd Hussars or other units in the 8th Armoured Brigade or the 29th Armoured Brigade in the 11th Armoured Division." A while ago I found this site: http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=590 ...and it seems like a really useful reference for British Tank Markings in Normandy. It doesn't appear to touch much on the 23rd Hussars or the 11th Armoured Division though, so does anyone have a link to anything similar as a guide for the markings on them? Or indeed what the markings of the 8th Armoured Brigade looked like after the 24th Lancers left and the 13th/18th Hussars joined: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8th_Armoured_Brigade_(United_Kingdom) Gives: Order of Battle 1944–1945 4th/7th Dragoon Guards (4/7 DG) (red??) 13th/18th Hussars (13/18 H) (yellow??) The Nottinghamshire Yeomanry (Sherwood Rangers) (SRY) (blue??) 147th (Essex Yeomanry) Regiment, Royal Horse Artillery 12th Bn (Queen's Westminsters), The King's Royal Rifle Corps (K.R.R.C.) & http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueId=2352 Seems to have the Sherwood's as yellow (it's a repainted display model though, and yellow probably shows up better on green than blue) The armoured component of the 11th Armoured Division consisted of the 29th Armoured Brigade: 23rd Hussars (Sherman V & Firefly VC) (Red?) 3rd Royal Tank Regiment (Sherman V & Firefly VC) (Yellow?) 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry (Sherman V & Firefly VC) (Blue?) 8th Rifle Brigade (Motor Battalion) Many thanks! Rm.
Thanks Allan, I still get a kick out of Joe Vandeleur's reply to Lt General Horrocks telling him that the Irish Guards were to lead XXX Corps into Holland in the film 'A Bridge Too Far'. The quotes below are cut from the 'wikiquote' page of the film here: Back to Normandy Apologies to those of you who were confused about where I was going with my last post. In a nutshell, I want to see what tone the yellow unit signs look like in black & white footage. With the aid of the excellent diagrams on the 'Flames of War' site page here and the B&W conversion tool in Photoshop, I think the differences between blue, red and yellow markings are easily ascertained (assuming Photoshop knows what its doing!): First, three examples of blue, red and (our much sought after) yellow: ...and what Photoshop thinks they should look like in B&W footage: The blue is almost indiscernible from the dark green background and the red appears almost black. The yellow is somewhere in the middle of the tonal range and matches well with this B&W photo which is stated to be of a 24th Lancers Sherman in Normandy: OK, I know not all yellow unit signs belong to the 24th Lancers but when you are spooling through miles of footage, every second counts Regards, Pat
Hi Rob, Sorry, just missed you there with my last reply. It looks like the 24th Lancers had yellow unit markings so I am going to do a trawl for Normandy B&W armour footage to see if any unit markings therein match the mid tone produced by this colour. Regards, Pat
Did the 159th Infantry Brigade have Shermans? in any of these battalions? 4th Battalion, King's Shropshire Light Infantry 1st Battalion, Herefordshire Light Infantry 3rd Battalion, Monmouthshire Regiment I'd assumed the tanks were in some associated brigade? Did the army spend most of their time learning this stuff??? My GOD IT SEEMS soooo complex!!! And one wonders half the time what was the point since it was just a stencil - why not print A, B, or C? Plus wouldn't the recognizance prints generally have been in black and white! I know they had colour then but seldom seemed to use it because of the expense and extra processing. Were the colours there just to confuse the German happy snappers disguised as tourists? Perhaps that's why the crews were always so seeming artful in standing in front of the markings whenever someone came to take their picture! Rm. [hr] Assuming that there were at least about "650" 24th Lancers I've probably found reference to the names of about 20% of them so far. I don't know if there was ever a "complete" roll call published, or if anyone ever tried to get a picture of them all together - but I live in hope! Rm. [hr] For reference too there's a good, quick, run through of the career of the 8th Armoured Brigade (including the 24th Lancers) at: http://www.warlinks.com/armour/8th_armoured/index.php This is the link for the Chapter that starts at D-Day: http://www.warlinks.com/armour/8th_armoured/chapter_4.php The gist of it seems to come from the war diaries, of which there seems to be some decent quotes in there. I remember my grandmother had a booklet version that I think was the same (or very similar) that I guess was published just after the war. Rm.
Hello Ramiles 3 RTR were with 4 KSLI at the liberation of Ecouche - "The Black Bull" "Eventually 4 KSLI in their TCVs reached Ecouche, 12 miles on, and dug in at 0200 hrs. Guess who was there. The Germans? The Americans? No, it was General Leclercs 2nd French Armoured Division" - so this advises the Armoured and Infantry units in the film. The 1st Herefords were with the newly joined 15/19th Kings Royal Hussars. 8 Rifle Brigade were with 23rd Hussars 3rd Monmouths were with 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry. Hope this helps Allan
There's a brief note at... http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/43483-23rd-hussars-the-black-bull11th-armoured-division/?hl=rauray#entry515794 that... "From August 6th to 22nd (the 23rd Hussars - after receiving reinforcements from the disbanded 24th Lancer) ...operated in the Falaise Gap. It left La Barbiere on August 12th and the next day organised with ‘G’ Company 8th Rifle Brigade under ‘A’ Squadron, ‘F’ Company under ‘B’, and ‘H’ Company under ‘C’. It advanced to Vassy then Canteloupe. It then operated along the Falaise-Argenten Road reaching L'Aigle by August 22nd and ending the push through the Falaise Gap." [hr] http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=40 I haven't see the film "fury" yet! I've seen a few warnings off! Any reviews? But I did learn that the Sherman's had an escape hatch - from reading a synopsis. A good few votes though that the roots of the story were Canadian in essence. I guess that there were differences between different tanks, but in the basic D-day model Sherman (if there is such a thing!) their casualty rate in armoured brigades as often suggested, is that tank commanders had it tough because of snipers, is anyone aware of any numbers to back this up? Or know which position in a tank was hardest to leave in the event of the tank being hit? I was wondering as an aside if the position in a tank could ever be inferred by casualties incurred. Were drivers lives more vulnerable if the tank were hit from the front? Commanders were usually officers or NCO's, but there often seem to be occasions when only one or two troopers were hurt. Of course it doesn't always say if they were in or out of the tank when this occurred. So it would be interesting if anyone knows during the first month after D-day say - how much of the tanks crews time was spent in - or out - of their tank? Best regards, Rm.
There's a good bit of detail here about what it was like to be hit (whilst in a tank) by a SRY veteran (and ex-24th Lancer) http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/trooper-riches-sherwood-rangers-rip.127854/ And a link there in the 2nd story post to the obit of http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1424545/Sergeant-George-Killer-Dring.html Sgt. George Dring SRY - who'd sometimes rather have been out of his tank than in it. There's also an interesting note too that the SRY actively "chose" their tanks with a preference: "The Sherwoods, by the way, being a desert experienced regiment who knew that a petrol fueled Sherman would ignite at the drop of a hat, only ever accepted diesel powered tanks from the depot. Their tanks still brewed if the ammo cooked off, of course, but this was much less frequent for the SRY than for some other units." I start to see why some wisely chose to go there! :sleepy:
Hi Rob, I saw it a few weeks ago on DVD and my acid test for war films is whether or not I would purchase the DVD for my library, having first rented it. The answer, for me at least, is no. It's a good film but not a great film, depending too much on emphasising the horror of tank warfare - which is fine if the storyline is there to back it up. IMHO, it's weak in this respect. Rent, but don't buy - save your money for 'The Imitation Game' Found reels 1 and 2 from the Ecouche footage on Critical Past (my link is to reel 3). The footage probably needs its own thread, so I'll open a new one when time permits. Regards, Pat
Thanks Pat, That makes sense. There's a fine line between shock and awe - but some like to do both! Best regards, Rm.
Hi! Is anyone familiar with this book: http://www.diandsaulbooks.co.uk/a-dalemans-war-by-carole-morland-2816-p.asp (I think it's only 58 pages) but apparently contains... focusing primarily on Stan Haygarth's life as Cavalryman in the 24th Lancers and the Royal Tank Regiment in World War II and his rehabilitation, having suffered horrendous burn injuries and combat stress. The daily routine of a soldier in the field during World War II will surprise many as much of the time was taken up by routine administration and inactivity between engagements with the Germans...
Hi Rob, Thanks for the new link to the Stan Haygarth story. Can you recommend one of the books you linked to above as being the better option to buy in order to follow the 24th Lancers through the Normandy campaign? Doesn't have to be the most detailed; I'm looking more for a 'road map' type work. Thanks, Pat
The "consensus" always seems to be "None Had Lances" but a) that is now long out of print, b) it was written a while ago and new info can since arise, and c) 2nd hand versions of it seem to go for £100+ (!) I've not seen it myself, so I am trying though to build up my own understanding, on my own account :angel: I've made some rough draft maps of a supposed route at: http://ww2talk.com/forums/gallery/album/833-progressing-on/ Which I'll hopefully refine, at some stage, as and when new info "presents" All the best, Rm.