Charlie's Church

Discussion in 'Fighter' started by Pat Curran, Jan 11, 2015.

  1. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi All,

    One of our newest members, Ellen Duinker, has asked me to open this new thread:


    Greetings from Canada,

    My father, S/L Hugh Charles (Charlie) Trainor, was a Canadian spitfire pilot in 411 squadron and then CO of 401 squadron. His obituary from August 2, 2004 Globe and Mail newspaper provides details of his career in the Royal Canadian Air Force. Here is the link:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/incoming/pilot-shot-down-five-enemy-planes-in-four-days/article18269442/

    Our family recently obtained 3 DVD's of my fathers' gun camera footage acquired from the Imperial War Museum in London England. One 1944 date in particular, July 17th, my fathers' birthday, showed him strafing what appears to be a truck, then a jeep and finally a limousine (three separate strafing attacks). His story of this day included a near encounter with a church spire (s?) shortly after the last attack.

    If possible, I would like to find the church where this encounter took place. In my attempt to "narrow the scope", I began researching 401/411 squadron history. Whitebeam Battlefield Research Forum was recommended; so, here I am!

    Below is a still photograph from the footage. Unfortunately this is the end of the film so it does not capture my father going around a second time, firing again as he sees the limousine off to the side of the road. As he looks up, he found himself directly in front of and below a church spire. In making “the most violent manoeuver I ever made in an airplane”, he narrowly avoids a collision.
    [​IMG]
    I recently returned from 3 weeks in France and spent a few days around Vimoutiers looking for curved roads/churches and old buildings. I initially thought the church had two spires; so I focused on that. Now I am not so sure. In my fathers’ interview (Trenton Air Force Museum) he clearly says spire and I don’t think he would mistake such an important detail. Furthermore, in this interview my father spoke of the strafing attack on Field Marshall Rommel about which he had heard a few days after his near miss with the church. He wondered if Rommel may have been his “birthday victim”. It was the “Who Shot Rommel” email thread on the Whitebeam Forum which led me to search the Vimoutiers area. Please allow me to reiterate, our family is trying to connect the church with the gun footage and not contest any claim to the attack on Field Marshal Rommel. “Charlies’church” may be in the Vimoutiers area; but after two days of searching, I could find nothing definitive.

    I now understand, thanks kindly to Pat and his meteoric search, that 411 squadron was flying in the Caen/Falaise/Lisieux area on July 17th, 1944. My father flying MK 423 left the airfield at 1600 and returned at 1710 that day.

    So gentlemen; a church, curved road, old buildings coupled with 70 minutes of flying in Normandy …how difficult can that be!

    With thanks,
    Ellen Duinker, on behalf of the Trainor family
     
  2. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Hi Ellen and Pat,

    Do we know how close to this location the church spire is and where it is in relation the the single still photo?

    Could we also possibly get a description of the church spire?

    I also believe that S/L Hugh Charles (Charlie) Trainor flew two missions that day. The second one being in the Thury Harcourt /Domfront / Alencon / Argentan area from 2025 to 2130.

    I just dont want to rule anything out too early.

    John
     
  3. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi John,

    You are of course correct. We should not ignore the second patrol.

    The only reason I am doubting the footage is from the later sortie is that he appears to have returned early as either one of the two with engine trouble or their two escorts. I was hoping for some shadows in the footage to allow Don to work his magic and obtain a rough time but this first screen grab at least seems to be devoid of well defined shadows. The orchard trees at left might be casting slight shadows to the left - if such be the case, then these shadows are probably not long enough for the time frame of the second patrol.

    What do you think Don?

    Below is an extract from 411's ORB Form 541 (Record of Events) for the 17th July:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    F/L Trainor is highlighted in yellow for both patrols.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  4. Ellen Duinker

    Ellen Duinker Active Member
    Researcher

    Jan 6, 2015
    59
    2
    Hi Pat and John,

    The pilot identification page at the beginning of the gun footage said 1630 and the mission was "attacking ground targets". Not sure gun cameras were time sensitive back then; perhaps the timing was based on the pilots' recollection. There were 3 strafings on this clip; could the time be distinguished between each one?

    Ellen
     
  5. firstflabn

    firstflabn Active Member
    Researcher

    Dec 18, 2012
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    Glad to see you, Ellen. I tend to focus on the American role, so every now and then I need a reminder that it was a team effort. Maybe recent events remind of us of the threat to western civilization and draw us closer. Hope we show the courage and determination of the WWII generation.

    Nice job on finding your father's gun camera footage. I'm going to be cagey so as not to prejudice you and other observers. Before spilling my guts, I need to ask everyone to give their best guess as to the shadow direction. The road provides a good reference point, so, if somebody thinks the sun is 30 deg to the right of the road (or some such), please post or PM. Ellen, if you could take a another look at the footage in motion, you might be able to make the best guess on shadow direction. Does it look like the sharpest shadow is where that building on the right juts out towards the road (maybe 4-6 feet)? Is that shadow consistent with the shadows cast by the trees on the other side of the road?

    The calculator produces sun bearing and elevation for a given lat/long and time. Assuming 1630 is double whatever time (GMT+2), the sun elevation would be at 50 deg above the horizon. Is that reasonable from the shadows? To give you a frame of reference - on this date, at this latitude, one hour changes elevation about 8 deg and bearing by about 18 deg. So, time is at least as important as bearing and elevation. If my GMT+2 assumption is wrong, please correct immediately and I'll recalculate (takes about 15 seconds).

    My best guess, in my first try, was accurate within a half hour. That was with long, crisp shadows. Here, we're solving for direction instead of time, but it's the same realtionship. If I could get within 20 deg on the road direction, my money would be on Pat to locate the buildings (if they're still standing).
     
  6. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Ellen and Don,

    Ellen, can we have some more screen grabs please?

    The one posted seems to have camera shake induced by motion blur or recoil from the guns. If you can scroll through the footage frame by frame you might happen on a sharper part. More stills will also add to the vista of the road.

    The caption with the time stamp would have been added later when the film was been processed. As you suggest, the time would have come from the pilot's report.

    Can you also clarify if the three scenes are separate from each other.

    Thanks Ellen.

    Don, my estimate is that the shadows from the orchard trees are somewhere around 220° - 230°, but I could be wrong.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  7. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Morning All,

    What do you guys think of this location?

    It's in the village of Boissey, a few miles to the west of Livarot on the D4. The view is east and the avenue on the right screened by the purple trees looks to be the same avenue at right in the footage. The pale blue door in the upper floor of the old barn at left appears open in the uppermost building on the gun camera footage!

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  8. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    Oct 24, 2012
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    Battlefield guide
    Normandie
    At least give us a chance, Pat....;)

    Looks good.
     
  9. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Sean,

    You have to keep up ;)

    Here is a better view of the house at right in the footage. I think we have it :D

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  10. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Apr 20, 2013
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    Cornwall/UK
    Come on Pat - leave some crumbs for the rest of us - I start by responding to the piece by Dean about other wreckage, then I start reading Ellen's interesting piece and by the time I get to the foot of the page you have probably found the location - plus, knowing the depth of your research, you are probably in contact with somebody who remembers the Spitfire flying overhead 71 years ago and just missing this very church spire!!

    Allan
     
  11. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Allan,

    I know you have been in sick bay for the last while so I'll make allowances for you, but the others! - how do they spend their Sunday nights? In the bar/pub I'll bet! :D

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  12. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Hi Pat,

    Well done! it appears to match... but it wasn't fair, I was searching every sharp curve I could find. :)
    I was very surprised when it seemed to be a much softer bend in the road.

    Hopefully Ellen or her brother Jim (Chas) can confirm the church spire.
     
  13. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi John,

    Are we sure the still just located is the same sequence as the near miss on the church spire?

    I don't have access to Ellen's emails just now.

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  14. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
    570
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    Male
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Hi Pat,
    I guess I am making the assumption that this still photo is from the limo that Ellen describes...

    To quote Ellen,
    "Unfortunately this is the end of the film so it does not capture my father going around a second time, firing again as he sees the limousine off to the side of the road. As he looks up, he found himself directly in front of and below a church spire".

    Coming back on a second pass on this vehicle would have Charlie Trainor coming back in the direction of the church.

    ... but I could be wrong.

    John
     
  15. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Apr 20, 2013
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    Retired - although it doesn't feel like it
    Cornwall/UK
    hello John

    I tend to think that as Ellen states "going around a second time" that Charlie Trainor circled back and came in again from the same direction as the original attack.

    This would have the advantage of, possibly, finding the vehicle easily, and, with the exception of the church spire, he would be familiar with his surroundings from a direction already used - even if it had only been minutes before.

    Is it possible for Ellen to pass you, or Pat, a copy of the film so that you can examine it yourselves to see what additional conclusions you might come up with?

    regards

    Allan
     
  16. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Guys,

    I know the Trainor family have asked for this appraisal of the gun camera footage with no thought to making a claim for the Rommel strafing and I concur that the primary purpose here is to locate the scenes in the footage.

    It is interesting nonetheless to note that it was almost certainly the D4 road which the car took from General Sepp Dietrich's 1 SS Panzer Corps HQ at St. Pierre-sur-Dives on route to Rommel's own HQ at La Roche Guyon via Livarot.

    Can we now say that it seems likely that this particular attack made by Charlie Trainor as seen in the still now located is not the attack on Rommel's car? I ask because any accounts I have read appear to indicate that the car made it at least as far as Livarot, albeit by a round about route.

    Regards,

    Pat

    Edit: Sorry about the double negative above - now corrected in red.
     
  17. Chas

    Chas Member
    Researcher

    Jan 11, 2015
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    0
    Good morning gentlemen, well early morning here on the west coast at least. I have warned Ellen that this might happen quickly, but I am still amazed at the speed with which you folks cut to the chase.

    I am sure Ellen is working to provide you with more picture evidence so I will attempt to clarify re the spire. There are a couple of elements that perhaps come into play in a consideration of this go-around. Dad had stated explicitly that he was “alone for some reason” at the time of this strafing and made it clear that this was an unusual and somewhat dangerous position to be in, even with the air superiority enjoyed at the time. I’m not sure he would take the time to go completely around to attack from the same direction as the additional time required may give some advantage to any defenders in the area. Any more would be speculation on my part.

    He also spoke of the effect of becoming fixated on the target during a ground attack and the danger of not allowing enough room to pull out. I’m not sure if it was this event with the church spire that impressed him with this effect, but I feel that the church must be very close to the limo crash site as it was in the process of pulling out of the second strafing run that he encountered the spire in the intimate manner that Ellen describes in her OP.

    Thanks Pat and all, for your efforts on our behalf. For now / Jim
     
  18. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Jim,

    Welcome to the Forum - glad to have another member of the Trainor family in our group.

    There is a single spire church in Boissey which now must be the one your Dad just avoided. There is a good GE 'street view' of it here.

    Looking forward to the next instalment from your sister :D

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  19. Ellen Duinker

    Ellen Duinker Active Member
    Researcher

    Jan 6, 2015
    59
    2
    WOW!
    I was still looking at shadow images/time of day! My university server is restrictive so I just spoke to John Versteege who transcribed the gun footage to ask if he sees a clearer image to forward.
    Pat...if I lose my car in a parking lot (heck, even my keys), you are the man to contact!
    Ellen
     
  20. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Ellen,

    I'm fine looking at Normandy but I failed to find my phone this morning having passed it five times...while it was ringing! :D

    Regards,

    Pat
     

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