Horsa Chalk markings with a dot - 436th TCG?

Discussion in 'Troop Carrier & Glider' started by Jonesy, Mar 21, 2016.

  1. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    I recently bought four very small photographs of US personnel being photographed with the wreck of a Horsa glider. All four were annotated as being D-Day gliders at St. Mere Eglise. The pictures on Ebay didn't really provide much in the way of detail but since they were Horsas, I decided to bid.

    I was pleasantly surprised when I received them that you can clearly see the Chalk number of the Horsa on one of the photographs. Chalk Number #6 with a dot underneath it. This is the first one I've seen with a dot.

    What do you guys think. Would you like to see the other three?

    Neil.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Jpz4

    Jpz4 Active Member
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    Oct 24, 2012
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    For the record, I purchased the photo of the 'polish' gun that was offered by the same seller at the same time.
     
  3. ddayHorsa

    ddayHorsa Active Member
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    Dec 20, 2013
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Yes Neil,

    I would certainly like to see the other pictures. Maybe someone would be able to come up with an idea as to just where this landing occurred. Maybe the background might give some clues.

    Also, I don't know if the C-47 and Horsa glider being towed at the bottom of your photograph indicates anything about the location, but the marking on the tug looks to be D8. If this is what it is, that would suggest the 439th TCG, 94th TCS. Perhaps the Hackensack mission to LZ-W.

    Charles
    [hr]
    Also, according to Patrick Elie's 6Juin website, the name of the pilot of Horsa number 6 in the Hackesack mission was Houck.
     
  4. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Chuck, that's my watermark for when I put a photo on my Facebook page.
     
  5. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Hi Neil,

    I wonder if we can find this one in an aerial photo...
    The break of the tail portion is unique to it and it looks like the Horsa has not got to the treeline and should be in the open.

    John
     
  6. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    I'll post the other three photographs.
     
  7. ddayHorsa

    ddayHorsa Active Member
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    Dec 20, 2013
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Hi Neil. Your watermark, ok, I wasn't aware of that. But I do look forward to seeing the other pics of that glider.

    Charles
     
  8. Chobbs91

    Chobbs91 Active Member
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    Oct 9, 2015
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    With all the photos of 439th Horsas that flew Hackensack I have seen I have not seen one with the formation chalk number on it as opposed to the 82nd operational numbers which are clear on many photos.
     
  9. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. ddayHorsa

    ddayHorsa Active Member
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    Dec 20, 2013
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Good to have the other pictures Neil. From the last two shots, it looks like No.6 came down in a pretty good size field. Seems like we should be able to spot it.

    Charles
     
  11. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Hi Guys,

    Nice set of photos Neil.

    This is one of three known 'dot' Horsas on the La Londe A-6 ALG, the other two being 'dot 14 ('Spook') and 'dot 22'. Below is a still from the CP footage here showing a view from the port side of your 'dot 6':
    [​IMG]

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  12. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Well bugger me with a fish fork. Quick work on identifying the Horsa.

    I had never noticed the dot on Chalk #14 and #22 before. The application of the Chalk number to #14 and #22 is very similar to Chalk #12 (Hoatson) so I assumed they were 436th TCG gliders. I can't see a dot on the Hoatson glider though but the angle of the photograph may have hidden it from view. I'll check the video on Critical Path to see if that gives a better view.
     
  13. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Hi Neil,

    I could be wrong, but I suspect the dot has more to do with the cargo carried that with the unit which flew the Horsa.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  14. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    I wish I could find documentation that states how the Chalk Numbers would be applied.

    For the 53rd TCW, so far we have the following confirmed:-

    435th TCG - A dash line above the Chalk Number
    438th TCG - A dash line below the Chalk Number

    It's possible the 436th TCG did have a dot below the Chalk Number but it's all conjecture until a photograph of Serial 32 at Membury Airfield surfaces.
     
  15. ddayHorsa

    ddayHorsa Active Member
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    Dec 20, 2013
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    #15 ddayHorsa, Mar 24, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Hi All,

    I was looking through some old posts on the Elmira Horsa Glider thread and came upon what might be another "dot" glider to add to the ones thus far identified. Below is a screenshot of the glider:





    dot glider no.46 critical past.png


    As most will recognize, this is a portion of some stitching work done by Pat some time ago on that thread. The glider in question is the one to the left of "Spook" on the screen. The chalk number appears between the A and the S of the word Past. It looks like it could be 40 or 46 or maybe 48, but in any event seems to have a dot below the number. It might just be a scuff mark, but is worth a look. A better view of this image will be found here if you scroll down to post #40 of the Elmira Horsa Glider thread, and use the zoom in and out feature on A-Drive by clicking on Pat's "Spook" link. Any thoughts?

    Charles
     
  16. ddayHorsa

    ddayHorsa Active Member
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    Dec 20, 2013
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    #16 ddayHorsa, Mar 25, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    And finally, still No. 63 of the Critical Past footage:



    Horsa glider #46 Critical Past.png



    A bit sharper.

    Charles
     
  17. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Nice find Charles. Well, the 436th TCG flew 48 Horsa's in Serial 32 so such a high chalk number as that in your post could well have come from that serial.
     
  18. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Well spotted Charles,

    I would have little doubt but that this is a 4th 'dot' Horsa. My money is on 'dot 46'.

    Neil, you may be correct in that the entirety of one serial from Mission 'Elmira' was marked by a dot, with other two employing either an 'underscore' or an 'overscrore' tick. If this is correct, then the 4th serial was probably left un-marked.

    Another thought...I wonder, with the only known examples of 'dot' Horsas being so far found on the A-6 La Londe ALG, had these gliders some specific purpose at this location...or is the law of averages just showing us a weighted number at the airstrip because of a proportionally higher amount of film and still photography shot here?

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  19. ddayHorsa

    ddayHorsa Active Member
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    #19 ddayHorsa, Mar 26, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    Hi All,

    May be pushing my luck a bit here, but take a look at the Horsa glider in still # 59 of the same Critical Past footage:



    Critical Past Horsa 37.jpg


    Ok, this glider is apparently showing chalk #37, and there is no "dot" visible. However, in the next still, #60, we may just be able to see something that could be such a marking:


    Critical Past Horsa 37 dot.jpg



    Now you will probably have to tilt your computer screen back and forth a little bit to get a view which seems to show a spot on the glider below the chalk number. I concede that it is quite a faint marking, but do think that something is there. The next image is of the same still, but with Brightness and Contrast manipulated some:



    Critical Past Horsa dot brightness.jpg


    Here, it is apparent that there is a mark on the glider below the chalk #, but I am unsure as to whether or not it is actually a dot. It doesn't show up too well, but is positioned where a dot would be. These two stills are the only ones in the footage that allow an unrestricted view of the area on the glider where the chalk number is shown. Any thoughts would be welcome.


    Charles
     
  20. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    Wiltshire, UK
    RE: New Horsa Chalk markings?

    I'd say there is a strong possibility of a dot there.
     

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