IWM Typhoon Rocket Still Photo

Discussion in 'Fighter' started by Pat Curran, Jan 23, 2016.

  1. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi All,

    When I saw the reference to Livarot in the photo details on the Imperial War Museum site page here, I was intrigued to see if it was possible to locate the ground visible in this photo:
    [​IMG]

    Straight main road, large orchard and three good hedgerow ties brought this location home reasonably easy to a spot about 4.3Kms east of the town on the D4. A quick check of 1947 IGN cover confirmed the location:
    [​IMG]
    The four German vehicles are therefore faced eastwards towards the village of Notre Dame de Courson.

    I see from the IWM page of the photo that the Typhoon was from 181 Squadron, RAF and piloted by Flying Officer Short. A search of IWM gun camera footage availability in this (2.0MBs) MS Excel spreadsheet indicates that they hold three sequences of footage for this pilot which would fit the location:
    • Film #8010......15th Aug 44......18:10hrs
    • Film #8083......18th Aug 44......15:00hrs
    • Film #8085......18th Aug 44......15:00hrs
    Anyone know more on 181 Squadron or Flying Officer Short?

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  2. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Ah!,

    I think I may have found Flight Officer Short's footage - or at least from an aircraft in the same attack as his. There is 13 seconds commencing at 01min 08sec in this YouTube version. Below are the opening and closing screenshots:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Below is the video embedded and set to start and finish with our sequence:

    <iframe width="700" height="394" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NNslnrjemQ8?start=68&end=81" frameborder="5" allowfullscreen></iframe>​

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  3. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
    Researcher

    Apr 20, 2013
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    Retired - although it doesn't feel like it
    Cornwall/UK
    Hello Pat

    Hopefully I am alone in this - but I constantly get it stopping at 1.21/3.47, and then the screen changes to 9 smaller pictures from other videos?

    Good research - up until 1.21 that is !!

    regards

    Allan
     
  4. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Sorry Allan,

    I went to great pains to get the code to only show the footage of the attack on the D4 road, and so save the reader having to run through the full length of the video :D

    Here is the full, 'unabridged by Pat' version:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNslnrjemQ8

    Its a neat feature though to be able to start and stop a YouTube video where you want. The code I used below is how you do it:

    Code:
    [CENTER]<iframe width="700" height="394" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NNslnrjemQ8?start=68&end=81" frameborder="5" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/CENTER]
    
    Note the difference in the web address, with this bit doing the magic:

    Code:
    ?start=68&end=81
    You must use seconds only, not minutes and seconds, so it starts to run 68 seconds into the video and stops at the 81 second mark.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  5. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    BTW Allan,

    I read somewhere last night that the Typhoon's cameras only activated if the gun button was pressed, but not if the rockets were fired without the guns. Do you know if this is correct?

    Doesn't seem to be the case in the attack footage on the track at Troarn railway station. See the 'Typhoon Gun Camera Footage Found' thread.

    Thanks Allan,

    Pat
     
  6. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
    Researcher

    Apr 20, 2013
    359
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    Retired - although it doesn't feel like it
    Cornwall/UK
    Hello Pat

    Still to view the video - but see http://ww2today.com/6-july-1944-typhoon-tank-busters-over-normandy

    "A and B Flights were flying in finger-four formation as pilots switched on and adjusted reflector gun sights, turned cannon buttons to the fire position and flipped down rocket switches in preparation for the attack"

    and

    "… He wanted to get the op over and done with, expecting the flak to come up at any second. He became more tense and nervous, and cursed the brown jobs [RAF slang for the British Army] for keeping them hanging about like this. … [Finally] The good old red smoke billowed out and one after the other the Typhoons performed a wing-over into a steep dive. Automatically, the Squadron spread out in echelon, each man firing short bursts from his cannons to keep the German gunners’ heads down. … Down they hurtled with speed rapidly building up towards 500 mph and controls getting heavy, requiring real physical effort on rudder pedals and stick. German gunners were pumping up tracer shells which came up at them in an arc, slowly at first and then rushing past like shooting stars, carving up the sky in red and yellow hoops. When they appeared to be coming straight for the aircraft instinctive reaction was to kick on rudder and slide or skid sideways out of the line of fire. The Typhoon was a rugged beast and it would take more than one man’s physical strength on the controls to break it. The last few seconds of the dive were crucial. It was the time when the pilot had to keep his head on the target and fly the aircraft without skid or slide which would send the rockets off line. Range was also of vital importance and a distance of 2,200 yards, or a little over a mile, was considered to be ideal because at that point a rocket achieved its maximum velocity. Out of a corner of his eye, Stanford caught a glimpse of tell-tale puffs of smoke coming from the rocket rails of a Typhoon ahead and to one side of him and knew that the pilot had fired his salvo. Almost immediately he let go his eight rockets and pulled out of the dive into a steep climbing turn."

    Seems like, in this instance, and probably all attacks, that they strafed as well as fired the rockets - to keep heads down.

    Quite a few films show up on Google appertaining to Typhoon attacks

    regards

    Allan
     
  7. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Thanks Allan,

    I thought there was a scene somewhere showing an attack on a farmhouse complex in about an acre of orchard wherein the footage is very clear except where the vibration from the guns during short bursts affect the quality of the footage. That would seem to indicate that it was the firing of the rockets which activated the camera - at least in that instance.

    That scene is on my wanted list in any event so I'll see if I can find it again.

    I also wonder if there were particular stretches of road in Normandy where targets of opportunity were sought out on a regular basis, perhaps when pilots were returning from sorties and still had ammunition to expend.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  8. Stephen M. Fochuk

    Stephen M. Fochuk Active Member
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    Nov 26, 2015
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    Fresh Air Inspector
    Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, Canada
    The camera could be "fired" on its own.
     
  9. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Thanks Stephen,

    That makes sense when viewing Typhoon gun camera footage.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  10. Stephen M. Fochuk

    Stephen M. Fochuk Active Member
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    Nov 26, 2015
    92
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    Fresh Air Inspector
    Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, Canada
    Off on a tangent here, I am not familiar with the R/P types, but I know the bombphoons guys rarely fired their machine guns during a dive as the casings and links could ruin the day to whoever was close behind. When they did it usually rated mention in the ORB. It also caused a momentary distraction as well for the pilot so unless warranted or instructed by their leader, I guess anything is possible. As you can see in the cine film, the pilot lets loose his R/Ps but probably even before the last of them leave the rails, he is already aiming at the other targets with his machine guns.

    Here's an example from No. 438's ORB:

    438 540: The day opened with a very heavy, damp, fog. Everything was wet and the trees dripped water as in a rainstorm. It cleared up considerably and the sun came out about 1030 hours but quite heavy ground haze remained. Regardless of the moderate visibility close to the ground, three “ops” missions were made during the day, two with 500 lb., bombs and one using the thousand pounders. Dive bombing results were good on all three but the last in particular was a honey. It was an attack against the target in the area where F/L R.M. McKenzie was missing. Due to the heavy flak known to be in this region, S/L Beirnes made the attack from 14,000 ft. to 6,000 ft., and every bomb landed in the target area. This was quite remarkable dropped from 6000 ft. The boys also used their cannon from about 10,000 ft. which allowed all ack-ack fire in the immediate vicinity of the target. Large fires were started and in particularly large one seemed to be on oil dump.

    438 541: 2115 – 2150 9 x Typhoon Ib (bombers) detailed to attack on G.C. 45 J.J. M.2., small wood south-east of Bois de Crinbosq. Aircraft attacked from 14,000 to 6,000 ft., south to north, at 55 degrees with all guns firing going in. All bombs (18 x 500 lb., .025 tail) on target area. No results observed, however, the Army signaled that the attack was a complete success, fires were seen, probably tanks.
     
  11. Peter

    Peter Guest
    Guest

    I'm a new member and researching 181 Squadron. P/O Short was WHB 'Brooke' Short, later to become briefly S/L and OC 181 Squadron in December 1944. Brooke Short was killed on 27th December 1944 after a collision with an unidentified aircraft.

    Brooke Short is seen here in July 1944 4th from Left, back row (with beard)
    [​IMG]

    And another taken at around the same time, standing 2nd from L. Photo from Ken Hanna seated with beret.
    [​IMG]

    Finally got the picture embedding worked out...... :)
     
  12. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Nice photos Peter,

    Have you got any of 181's ORBs yet? There is a full set of 24 (Forms 540/541) for the twelve months of 1944 on TNA site here.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  13. Peter

    Peter Guest
    Guest

    Hi Pat, i haven't got the ORBs yet. I'm fairly new to this, so wondered whether to buy them online, or (since I would also want to get the ORBs for the other years) whether it would it be better/cheaper to visit the National Archive in person and make copies?

    What would you, and others advise?

    Peter
     
  14. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Peter,

    The last time I purchased a downloadable PDF from them, it cost £3.50 as far as I recall. If that's the current rate, each month will cost you £7 as you really need both Forms 540 and 541 to be sure of not missing something.

    I would be glad to cover the cost of two or three months from the summer of 1944. Let me know so that we don't duplicate our efforts.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  15. Stephen M. Fochuk

    Stephen M. Fochuk Active Member
    Researcher

    Nov 26, 2015
    92
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    Fresh Air Inspector
    Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, Canada
    Hi Peter,

    If memory serves me right, Ken "Chad" Hanna is still with us.

    Stephen
     
  16. Peter

    Peter Guest
    Guest

    Hi Stephen, yes Ken is still with us. We were in touch last year and he very kindly was able to help me confirm the identity of Dick Guthrie among some 181 pilots in another photo.
     
  17. Peter

    Peter Guest
    Guest

    Hi Pat, do you happen to know whether it is the same cost to download the forms in person at the national archive? Just trying to work out whether it is cheaper for me to travel there and download 1942-45, or whether to buy them online from home.

    Peter
     
  18. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Peter,

    As far as I know, you can photograph documents in TNA Reading Room for free using your own camera (with flash turned off). However, there is probably a process to be gone through in order to have the documents available for you to view on the day of your visit - very likely with some form of associated cost.

    Have a look at their 'Accessing and Copying Documents' page for more information.

    I have now purchased the Form 540 (Summary of Events) and the Form 541 (Record of Events) for June and July 1944. The download link is in the PM I just sent you. Let me know if you cannot download from it and I'll email the four PDFs to you directly.

    I'll be putting the four documents in the 'Green Room' Library guys over the weekend, but if anyone else wants copies before then, just send me a PM.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  19. Peter

    Peter Guest
    Guest

    Thanks Pat I found the ORBs full of info and several references to my man Guthrie. I downloaded the August forms tonight - it may be possible from there to identify the exact sortie of P/O Short's gun camera footage.

    Peter
     
  20. Sean

    Sean Active Member
    Researcher

    Oct 24, 2012
    331
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    Male
    Battlefield guide
    Normandie
    Hello there,

    For next time, or if anyone else is thinking along the same lines...

    Pat is correct, you can photograph documents at the NA for free.
    You can also order in advance on the off chance that the document you require will have been oredered by someone else the same day. As far as I know, though, there is no charge for this.

    Last time I renewed my ticket it was pretty straight forward- you watch a video telling you how to handle documents, get your picture taken, show your ID and you're set. Ticket lasts a few years.
    The set up in the archives is very good, IMHO.

    The advantages of going yourself:
    Not everything has been digitised
    You get colour photos at a resolution of your choosing (some files have photos and maps)
    If you require a lot of stuff, it's porbably cheaper
    Café's nice, so is the bookshop.

    Cheers

    Sean
     

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