Jack Butler Payne L/Cpl (49th Recce Regt.)

Discussion in 'British & Commonwealth' started by Pat Curran, Feb 19, 2017.

  1. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi All,

    New Forum member Alistair Payne has asked if we might help him research his grandfather, L/Cpl Jack Butler Payne, 49th Recce Regiment. Alistair has posted this on our FB page:

    Below is a photo of L/Cpl Payne:
    [​IMG]

    Alistair, I would be very grateful if you could let me have a copy of the 49th Recce's June War Diary. Also, any other documents or research you have undertaken to date.

    I think it might be a good starting point if we could collect links to footage pertaining to Rauray in June. Also, what 'air' do we know of for the area during the last two weeks of the the month?

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  2. ReccePayne

    ReccePayne Guest
    Guest

    Pat, Many thanks for creating the thread, could you pm me your email address and i will end the war diary across to you.
     
  3. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Alistair,

    My email is pat@whitebeamimages.ie. Any documents which are too large to email, I can set you up with a link to my ADrive 'cloud'. Many thanks again.

    In Googling tonight, I am getting mixed parent units for the 49th Recce Regiment which include both the 11th Armoured Division (Black Bull) and the 49th (West Riding) Division. I think the latter is correct; can anyone confirm please?

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  4. ReccePayne

    ReccePayne Guest
    Guest

    I believe he was with the 49th Div polar bears. I believe the action involving my grandfather is discussed on page 78/79 of patrick delaforces book the polar bears.
     
  5. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Alistair,

    Thanks for the confirmation regarding the 49th Division. In your email you state your grandfather was in a bren carrier. From this page I would assume then we are looking for carriers with a '41' TAC sign on the right front fender and the white Polar Bear on the left fender. Anyone able to confirm please?

    Alistair, I much appreciate you sending the Immediate Action Report for the 27th June, which if its for public viewing, I would like to post here.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  6. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi All,

    In the above mentioned report, I see the following reference:

    From Googling the term, I gleam that a 'sabot' is a device which keeps the round centred in the barrel as its fired, but what does the '(DS)' reference mean?

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  7. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
    Researcher

    Apr 20, 2013
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    Male
    Retired - although it doesn't feel like it
    Cornwall/UK
    In my, very humble, opinion an APDS round would be superior to straight AP, plenty of information on the web about APDS.

    I know it says "gun" but what fired the rounds, infantry manned antitank gun/SP/field artillery or a tank itself, and any idea what calibre?

    Regards

    Allan
     
  8. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Thanks Allan,

    Working on some screenshots of the Report as we speak. I want to plot the map references therein also.

    Be back in a while.

    Pat
     
  9. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
    Researcher

    Apr 20, 2013
    359
    0
    Male
    Retired - although it doesn't feel like it
    Cornwall/UK
    Okay Pat, I have been reading a book by a tank troop commander, A Squadron, Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry, 8 Armoured Brigade, mainly about Normandy, but follows him in to Germany to end his story.

    Quite a few mentions of Rauray, they were supporting 147 Brigade of 49th Division.

    Tank Action by David Render and Stuart Tootal.

    Regards

    Allan
     
  10. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi All,

    Here is the Immediate Action Report of the 49th Recce Regiment for 27th June:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I have plotted the six quoted map references A-F marked above on the extract from Sheet No. 37/16 S.E. (CHEUX) below:
    [​IMG]
    The road running through the 'orchards about 895662' appears to be the present day D173A at this point. If anyone spots any errors in my plotting, please let me know so as to allow a correction to be made.

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  11. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Just looking up IGN cover...

    There appears to be two frames flown in 1945 which just catch the orchard on their NW boundary here. The orchard is between the label 'Cimetiere Britannique' and the numeral '4'.

    Are we seeing wrecks in the small field to the south of the orchard?

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  12. ReccePayne

    ReccePayne Guest
    Guest

    Pat, this is great stuff so far. I will scan the polars bears book extract relating to this incident. It is a first hand account by a member of y (anti tank) troop from squadron 49 recce. The guns in question are 6pdrs i believe. I also have modern days shots of the farm track discussed in the immediate action report and the view from the orchard. Many thanks for your help to date!
     
  13. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Alistair,

    I don't have the Polar Bear book, so would welcome the oppertunity to read the account of the action therein.

    There seems to be wrecks visible near the orchard in the 1945 IGN cover, but what they are I am not sure. Will post some enlargments soon. I had a quick look last night for NCAP cover but I think the only sortie over the orchard was flown on the 25th June. Need to recheck that though.

    I would also like to see your present day photos taken on the farm track as the Google 'street view' only goes as far as the Fontenay-le-Pesnel War Cemetery.

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  14. ReccePayne

    ReccePayne Guest
    Guest

    Pat, Please see attached extract from Delaforce's book. My grandfather was in d troop (poss. 4th troop?) b squadron. One of his memories of France was his first proper nights sleep was in the crypt of the church (possibly Cristot). The shelling was so intense they had been up for a few days and decided that it looked like a good place to get away from exploding shells.

    If you could send me the link to your iCloud I will send the war diary across. Sorry the email didn't work

    Alistair
     

    Attached Files:

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