Possible Spitfire Brucheville

Discussion in 'Fighter' started by Sean, Jan 29, 2016.

  1. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    Hello there,

    As has been suggested, we may as well move this to a seperate thread.

    Aircraft in question, correctly orientated with Pat's tie ins:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    If it's a Typhoon, a list of potential candidates, to eliminate or add to as you see fit...

    10th June, 193 Sqn MN522 F/Sgt G A Gough Hit by flak, force landed on ELG* in beachhead

    12th June, 247 Sqn JR524 P/O W J L S Lowes Hit by flak, aircraft Cat B but not repaired

    13th June, 183 Sqn MN240 F/O R W Prosser Flak, force landed in beachhead pm

    14th June, 193 Sqn MN656 F/O Statters Engine failure west of Bayeux caused crash landing. Rtd later to UK

    14th June, 198 Sqn JR512 F/Sgt C E Stratford Armed recce. Flak, force landed north of Carentan and hit a house**

    15th June, 193 Sqn ????? W/O S F G Walker Damaged by flak and force landed on ELG*. Aircraft later written off

    24th June, 197 Sqn MN629 P/O R H Jones Encountered flak, force landed in Allied territory. Aircraft SoC

    28th June, 181 Sqn JR34 F/O W H B Short Encountered flak, crash landed in beachhead area

    * Could fields full of gliders be interpreted as an ELG?
    ** I think the house thing eliminates this one

    All the above from Norman Franks "Royal Air Force Fighter Command Losses Vol 3"

    It may be visible on the famous 8010 frame, which would put the date on or before 12th June, limiting the options above to F/Sgt Gough and possibly F/O Lowes:

    [​IMG]

    The location being 11 o'clock from the tail of the red arrow.

    Edited to include F/O Statters as a possibility.
    [hr]



    As 193 Sqn have three possibilities in the above list, including one "likely" if the aircraft is visible on 8010 (12th June), it makes sense to check out their ORBs first.

    Photobucket is down at the moment so I can't post images.
    For F/O 'Gus' Gough, the entry for 10th June in the Summary of Events reads:
    June 11th:
    June 12th:
    .
     
  2. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi Sean,

    Is it safe to say that we are not seeing a Spitfire?

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  3. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Depends on what you mean by "safe", Pat...;)

    Do you have a candidate?
     
  4. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi Sean,

    No, I just want to concentrate on Typhoon squadrons.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  5. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hello Pat

    OK. I'm not certain either way. Each time I look at it, doubts creep in. We can eliminate some types already, so if we work on Typhoons- we have a relatively small number of candidates- and it turns out nothing 'fits', then we can eliminate them too, and narrow our search further.

    Cheers

    Sean
     
  6. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi Sean,

    Below is the wreck of Flying Officer W. Smith's Typhoon marked 'MR-B' (MN625). This photo is taken from page 61 of Chris Thomas's 'Typhoon Wings of 2nd TAF 1943-45' and appears to show an RAF recovery crew at work on the wreck:
    [​IMG]
    The caption reads:
    The reference to 'ten days later' is going back to the 10th June, when F/O Smith stole the show from AVM Harry Broadhurst at B-3 Ste Croix sur Mer by becoming the first Allied pilot to do a wheels down landing in France following D-Day - see that story in the '245 Sqd Typhoon 'MR-K' on ALG B-3?' thread. Thus, as far as I know, F/O Smith had escaped from at least three crashes/forced landings in just 15 days! He had to ditch in the Channel 30 miles north of Cherbourg after being hit by flak on the 5th June.

    But back to 'our' wreck. I am pretty sure that its not F/O Smith's 'MR-B' because there appears to be a crack between the fuselage and engine compartment as indicated by the red arrow in the re-worked blowup below:
    [​IMG]
    If this crack is present, it appears to match well with the joint location in the drawing below of F/O Smith's 'MR-K' - though I don't suppose there is much difference in the joint location between the other fighter makes:
    [​IMG]
    Apparently it was quite a dangerous task to belly land a Typhoon because of the large, protruding air intake under the nose. If the nose was not held up on impact, the air intake would dig in and flip the aircraft onto its back. I note that the field in the photograph has ridges in it, which would not have helped in this regard, if this is a Typhoon (or Tempest). Perhaps the experienced pilot who landed this aircraft, succeeded in holding the nose up until the last minute and then when the nose came down near the end of the run, the air intake caught on a ridge, causing the crack in the joint.

    Anyway, does anyone else see this crack? :huh:

    I am quite a bit less sure that there is damage to the upper part of the vertical stabiliser and rudder. This perception of mine could just be the angle of view and in any event the vertical stabiliser on a Typhoon is not very high.

    Just some thoughts guys.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  7. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hello Pat,

    Yep. It's where the firewall/bulkhead is. The engine, the heaviest part of the aircraft, is in front of this. If the mounts buckled or broke, then I reckon this would cause a break similar to that visible.
    Equally though, as you point out the Spitfire has a bulkhead in the same place.

    For now, I think Gough's aircraft is a good candidate to start with.The squadron codes were 'DP', which in 'our' view would be behind (left of) the roundel. It lookd like there's some paint visible in the rearmost white Invasion Stripe. Doesn't look much like a 'D' but reflecting light may be playing tricks...

    As I posted this another doubt set in as it would seem more in keeping with a Sptifire for the code to sit that far back...:-/

    Cheers,

    Sean
     
  8. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi guys,
    I see the crack at the firewall, but I have another question... Is it a crack?
    Do you think it appears that the plane was censored in some fashion with black marks?
    Do you see some marks across the vertical stabilizer maybe made to censor some markings in the shape of XI on it, possibly even across the invasion stripes and another mark under the cockpit? Even the propeller blade looks a bit square to me.
    In a four bladed prop, why are we not seeing more blades?

    I don't know what to make of it, but do you think this plane has been censored?

    John
     
  9. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi John,

    Apparently both three and four bladed props were in use during the Normandy Campaign. Below is another photograph from page 55 of Chris Thomas's 'Typhoon Wings of 2nd TAF 1943-45':
    [​IMG]
    The caption reads:
    I think we are seeing the three bladed version here, with the single blade pointing up having survived the impact because the engine was already stopped before the belly landing.

    Just can't be sure of any marking John, but the angle downwards of the engine compartment towards the propeller, when compared to the way the rest of the fuselage sits in the field, convinces me that it has broken away.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  10. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi Pat,

    Do you notice how the firewall break extends up higher than the actual fuselage a slight amount? You wouldn't expect the black to extend beyond the fuselage.
    I'm not saying it isn't broken, but could there be a squadron emblem censors may have tried to hide?
    Also zoom in on the Tail, can you see a sloppy XI possibly made by censors in black covering the vertical stabilizer? Even thought this is the shady side of the plane. the coloring is off or curiously uneven.

    I may be wrong, but it is what I see...

    John
     
  11. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi John,

    I wonder where the WW2 Radio FB site owner(s) are getting these photos from? I doubt very much that we are seeing full resolution copies of the photos shown - notwithstanding the credit due to them for posting the lower res versions.

    I see what you mean about the black marking, but I remain cautious as to what it is.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  12. jon_short

    jon_short Member
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    Jan 29, 2016
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Gents,

    I note that the possibiltiy of it being a Spitfire was dismissed early on but having spent an hour or so going through various Google Image Searches for Typhoon/Tempest and clipped wing Spitfires, I'm leaning more to it being a clipped wing Mk IX.

    Although I don't have access to any documents to back this up (ie records of crashed clipped wing spits in this area around the time frame in question) but the plan view of the wing fits that of a Spitfire. The Typhoon 1B from what I've been able to find all have rounded wing tips, something this doesn't have. Some Tempest variants had clipped wings but the profile of the vertical stab isn't correct for a Tempest.

    Sorry if that's mixing things up but I'd be more inclined to look for the records of RAF/RCAF Sqns operating clipped wing Mk IX's (can't imagine the Mk V was still being used at this point in the war for front line operations) that may have crashed in the area.
    [hr]
    Also I think the 2 20mm cannons on each wing are very prominent features on Typhoon's, something which doesn't seem apparent from the enlarged photo.
     
  13. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hello Jon,

    Not at all :)

    I keep changing my mind about the type but when i took the best image we have, and in paint drew over the outline in red, it did look a little more like a Spitfire....

    So here are a few candidates to start with:

    7th June
    443 Sqn RCAF
    F/O D W Goodwin ????? 'D'
    F/Lt I R Maclennan MH850 'H'
    F/O R B Henderson MJ455

    10th June
    74 Sqn Sgt J Dalzell ML200
    130 Sqn P/O J R Meadows EE685
    222 Sqn F/Lt C H Lazenby MK892 'C'
    402 Sqn RCAF P/O C H Bavis EP114

    All are MkIXs, except Meadows' and Bavis' aircraft which are MkVbs.

    Cheers,

    Sean
     
  14. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi Jon,

    Excellent observation; the cannons should be catching sunlight at the same angle as the top of the wings and so should be very prominent, even with the enlargement being so pixelated.

    Does anyone have ORBs for Sean's Spitfire squadrons above?

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  15. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Here's another thought...

    What about the Air Spotting Pool?

    Ten squadrons in all; five RAF (Spitfires), four Royal Navy FAA (Seafire IIIs) and one US Naval Squadron VCS-7 (Spitfires).

    As far as I know, the Seafire had clipped wings to suit its use on carriers.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  16. jon_short

    jon_short Member
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Apparently Flt Lt Lazenby crashed on a beach in Normandy.

    Text below taken from the Airfix Forum:

    On June 10th, 1944, F/Lt Lazenby was forced to make a crash landing on a beach in Northern France whilst flying MK892 after an engine failure caused by an airlock in the fuel system, probably as a result of dropping his slipper tank. Unfortunately for Lazenby the beach he chose to crash on was still in German hands and he was taken PoW. Colour pictures of MK892 on the beach in Normandy clearly show the hand painted squadron code letters on the right hand side of the fuselage and the odd, light grey, fuel tank panel. Although the decal sheet I used suggests the squadron codes (ZD) were hand painted on both sides it is most likely that the codes read ZD-C on the left side, not C-ZD as the decals suggest. All other reference for 222 squadron Spitfires supports this buy without a photo of the left side of the aircraft I decided to go with the decal option. Interestingly Eduard, who have this aircraft as an option on one of their recent MkIX kits) went the ZD-C route with their decals. Maybe they found a picture I didn't? Never mind.
     
  17. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi Guys,

    Found a painting of a Normandy ASP Seafire, complete with invasion stripes, here and another colourised photo here of RNAS 808 Squadron Seafire IIIs on the deck of the escort aircraft carrier HMS Khedive, entering the Grand Harbour of Valletta in Malta. July 1944.

    However, both images show this model armed with one canon in each wing :s

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  18. Stephen M. Fochuk

    Stephen M. Fochuk Active Member
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi folks,

    I have been studying this post from afar and the more I look at the image the more I too am inclined to think we have a Spitfire VB and it is most likely one from the ADGB Groups that were providing support. Here's an image that I found online for reference, though I cannot tell if it is clipped or not.

    http://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/uk/raf/spitfire/Spitfire_of_No._64_Squadron_RAF_with_Invasion_Stripes_Normandy_June_1944.jpg

    Two things about the image of the bellied in plane that I have noticed, which, looks like the guy went on one helluva ride.

    There is one propeller visible, almost vertical, and it is wide, so most likely a Rotol broad-root propeller, which indicates this one most likely suffered some form of engine failure before it landed as they were made of wood.

    Also, I am seeing a code letter, either an 'I', 'L', 'U' or even an 'H' in the last white flash, rear, on the starboard side. Considering we cannot clearly see any code letters forward of the D-Day stripes makes me wonder if we're not seeing an early loss as once things settled down, the squadrons tended to clean-up their aircraft when time permitted and made the codes easier to see.

    Initially I thought it could have been an RN Martlett or even worse an RN Hellcat, but the RN F6F didn't show up till later and further south.

    Stephen
     
  19. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi Stephen,

    ADGB...Spitfire VB...I don't see any squadrons from ADGB using the VB model in the RAF Order of Battle for D-Day ('D-Day - The Air Battle' by Ken Delve p. 163). The only squadron within ADGB for which no model of Spitfire is listed is No. 616 and their Wiki page here is not specific regarding which model they used in June 1944. The Order of Battle of course is probably only good for the 6th June.

    I came across an interesting account of a Spitfire belly landing in the Utah Beach area on page 101 of 'Victory Fighters - The Veterans' Story' by Stephen Darlow:

    11th June, bulldozing - this is almost certainly the American A-6 ALG at La Londe Farm, so not 'our' Spitfire, but a great story none-the-less :D

    No 403 Squadron's code letters were 'KH'

    I wonder what caused 'our' Spitfire to crash? :rolleyes:

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  20. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    RE: Possible Typhoon Brucheville

    Hi Pat,

    Isn't there a photo or two of a spitfire at A-6 ALG ?

    John
     

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