The Horsas at the crossroads of d115 & d913

Discussion in 'Troop Carrier & Glider' started by Jonesy, Nov 27, 2014.

  1. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    Wiltshire, UK
    Gents,

    This may well have been covered already in another topic and I apologise if it has. I'm slowly working through each thread.

    This photo has always been one of my favourites of the D-Day invasion.

    [IMG=850x671]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v464/jonesy1275/101st-airborne-and-handcart_zps1fccfaa5.jpg[/IMG]

    Patrick told me where the photograph was taken as I'd always assumed it was taken around Hiesville. What I'd like to know is more about the Horsas. Which mission were they part of, which squadron and does anybody know who the glider pilots were?

    You Tube footage of 4th ID at the Horsa crossroad

    The reasons for me having an interest in this photo. Well, I think the Horsa is an absolute beauty. British at its best although some would disagree due to the amount of crashes in Normandy. Also the jeep and handcart has a special place in my heart as I own them both too.

    [IMG=850x638]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v464/jonesy1275/Jeep--handcart_zps9a1761d7.jpg[/IMG]

    Neil.

    Edited by Pat to down size images to 850 pixels wide.
     
  2. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Neil,

    As you probably know, there was a lot of still and movie film shot at this crossroads. We did do some work on the Horsa in the background which has the airborne No. 'E3'. An extract of the high resolution version of your photo below shows this number quite clearly:
    [​IMG]
    I cannot recall if we all agreed at the time, but I was pretty certain that the same Horsa was used in this feign footage shot from E3's port side:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Note points R(Rudder position), S(Spot on nose) and D(Door ramp down) for ties. The red arrows indicate a concrete power pole, one down from the pole in your photo.

    Tyler Alberts has some extra footage on some of his DVDs as well:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    For those readers wondering where we are, E3 was in the upper, un-grazed half of the field highlighted below:
    [​IMG]

    As to what squadron E3 belongs to, I do not know but I think we had considered her as being one of the 'Keokuk' gliders. If this is correct, then she must belong to the 434th Troop Carrier Group (71st, 72nd, 73rd or 74th Troop Carrier Squadron).

    Hope this helps,

    Pat
     
  3. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
    223
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    Wiltshire, UK
    Pat, great info. Thank you.

    Do you know which DVD of Tyler's has that footage that you've taken screen grabs?
     
  4. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Neil,

    There is quite a bit on the 9th Infantry Division - Invasion of Normandy Series DVD. The link will bring you to a newer version of this disk than the one I used but I am sure the same sequence is on that as well.

    You can see the GIs' turning their heads to the left as E3 suddenly appears visible at about the point indicated by the red arrows below. Note how the field appears to be slightly higher than the road surface, so E3 would have been an imposing sight at first glance:
    [​IMG]

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  5. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
    223
    2
    Wiltshire, UK
    Tyler has a 20% sale on at the moment too.

    I've travelled on that road numerous times but I'll make a point to stop and take in the area in June.

    I will be taking the handcart along with the jeep so I'll recreate the photo.
     
  6. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Male
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Hi Pat and Neil,

    I do remember seeing an aerial photo of this area somewhere that included the Horsa gliders, but I cannot remember where. I did quickly search the NCAP site aerials and it was not there.
    I do know however that it can be seen in the aerial US7GR_1857_8010 along with the Brecourt area.

    Pat, maybe you can post an extract here when you have some time.
    Also do you think Col Roy Stanley II may have an image somewhere?

    Neils, a copy of the same aerial is available in our "green room' under resource files > "NCAP High Resolution Frames" in a large tiff file.

    John
     
  7. patelie

    patelie Active Member
    Researcher

    Sortie 140/334 17 june 1944 Frame 3125
     
  8. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Hi Patrick,

    Thanks for the sortie and frame, but I had no luck on NCAP here:
    http://ncap.org.uk/

    If it is available online somewhere, could you please post a link to it when you have some time. I'd like to see it again.

    John
     
  9. patelie

    patelie Active Member
    Researcher

    I have only a low res of the aerial (1350 x 1100) but I cann't add it here because I have reached my "quota" !

    Ok! sent on your aol email
     
  10. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
    223
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    Wiltshire, UK
    Patrick, can you email it to me and I'll quite happily host it on my photo bucket account.
    [hr]
    With regards to the screenshots from the Combat Reels DVD, is this footage available elsewhere e.g. You Tube?
     
  11. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Guys,

    Here is the paid search result, IMSL-IR-17937 (3.0MB PDF) carried out by the NCAP (then TARA) staff for us back in May 2011. The field with Horsa 'E3' is shown on the last two frames:
    • TARA_ACIU_140_0334_3125
    • TARA_ACIU_140_0334_3126
    John, the reason that you cannot locate 3125 on the NCAP site is that they have not yet digitised it.

    Niel, the footage is probably available on the Photosnormandie YouTube Channel here but I do not have an index of scenes so you are going to have to do a bit of digging to find it ;)

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  12. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
    223
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    Wiltshire, UK
    I've found the footage on PhotosNormandie You Tube page but blink and you'll miss it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1a68bnYuGo&list=UUd-pnf-84goYFupXpld5bVw

    It starts 6 minutes 40 seconds in to the footage.
     
  13. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
    223
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    Wiltshire, UK
  14. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Neil,

    I don't know how many photos you took to try to get the layout right, but you nailed it perfectly!
    When you look at the 1944 image with yours... I looks awesome!

    John
     
  15. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Neil,

    Nice work indeed!

    The first 55 seconds in the PhotosNormandie film #f000245 shows elements of the 9th ID moving northwest up to the junction on the D115 and then the MP directs them southwest onto the D913. The wrought iron railings around the calvary have been removed since the war.

    There is more footage of a German PoW writing up his details and then looking at the camera along with still more showing the 9th ID guys looking in over the hedge at the Horsa marked 'E3'.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  16. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi All,

    I wonder can we place Horsa 'R15' next to 'E3' in the same field :dodgy:

    There is a well know ground photo of Horsa 'R15' with accompanying livestock but I have never been able to place it until now:
    [​IMG]
    I found new footage of 'E3' which has not been considered here before. It is contained in the BP Film 'Invasion Scenes - Ships & Troops' (Film ID No. 2105.14). Below is a still showing what I believe to be a new view of the front of 'E3':
    [​IMG]
    The next scene shows another new view of 'R15' from her starboard side. I have never seen this side of her before and I have little doubt that it is one and the same glider as that shown in the well known ground shot with the cows and horses:
    [​IMG]
    The problem is that the camera does not pan between the two gliders, but the new 'R15' scene does give us new clues by way of tree 'fingerprints'. Note trees 1-9 marked above and the blue arrow which is pointing to a short, stumpy tree trunk.

    While the all seeing NCAP_ACIU_US7GR_1857_8010 (flown on the 12th June) does give us perspective on the location, the extract below is not going to provide us with the 'fingerprints' we need!:

    [​IMG]
    Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk

    I then remembered the first NCAP (then TARA) image which I purchased many years ago during my BofB phase. I got it to see if the Brecourt Battery positions could be seen. Anyway, it also contains an excellent view of the new backdrop to R15 and, while not conclusive, I believe there are several good to excellent ties showing in the tree 'fingerprints':

    [​IMG]
    Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk

    I especially like 4,5 and 7 :D

    What do you guys think?

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  17. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
    Researcher

    Nov 23, 2014
    223
    2
    Wiltshire, UK
    Pat, you're correct. The photo I have of the jeep and handcart features both Horsa gliders in the frame. I'm not at home now to post it but I've posted those photos on my FB page only a few days ago.
     
  18. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Neil,

    Thanks for the update. I Googled the phrase 'Horsa "R15"' and found a book titled 'The Americans on D-Day: A Photographic History...' by Martin K. A. Morgan which again places R15 in the field at the crossroads with E3. However, is this certainty based solely on the BP footage which I referenced in my last post?

    If so, I would worry about the break in the film between the two gliders if the tree 'fingerprints' were not present. A lot of still and movie film shots were taken at the crossroads and there are two additional Horsas present in the adjoining field to the SW.

    What I am getting at is - did Martin Morgan have another source which placed R15 in this field?

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  19. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
    Researcher

    Nov 23, 2014
    223
    2
    Wiltshire, UK
    The high res version of this photo clearly shows that it is R15.
    [hr]
    A close up of the chalk numbers from the above photo.

    The Holdy Horsa had a chalk number of R5 in the same font.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Thanks Neil,

    Failed to see that one :blush:

    Regards,

    Pat
     

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