In 'Over The Battlefield, Operation Goodwood' Daglish has a chapter on the time of the air sortie that captured the action. He settles on a time of 12 noon. However the photo on 176 of his book of the field where the TII and Sherman of IG collided appears (to me) to have the 2 tanks in situ (circled in red) just beside the road running L-R across the middle of the pic. If so then it is a lot later than noon. Obviously I think Daglish is wrong to suggest the collision with take place later that day and off to the right (white circle). This later August 8 view shows the area. Cagny is the place with all the bomb craters centre bottom. This is the incident If it can be shown that is the 2 tanks locked together in the air view then that would settle the time of the photo. In the same book he places a Tiger wreck (page 167) to the north of Manneville and to the left of the D227 when in fact it is to the south in the field just below the junction of the D227 with the D225
Hi Michael, Firstly, welcome to the Forum; I was delighted to see your name coming up on John's awaiting list Have you checked for records of the 22nd PR Squadron to establish the time this sortie was flown? I'll see what I can find tonight if not. Also, for the benefit of those readers who may not be familiar with Operation Goodwood, can you give us a short paragraph on how these vehicles came to be in the positions shown. Thanks, Pat
Welcome Michael, your skills in questioning 'well established facts' and ability to identify them as the 'poorly supported, biased assumptions' they often are will be an asset to this forum. Not to mention your vast knowledge of the fighting in Normandy. It's also great to have a member who's far better informed on the British sector than most of our members. Niels
I have seen this picture before and did a quick search. Not sure if it will help, but....: Normandy June 2015 - Day#05 – Thursday 4th June - part 1 - Men In The Shed
Hi Stephen, A Sherman called 'Ballyragget'! That town is up county from me here in Kilkenny - I wonder what the connection is with Lieutenant Gorman? Perhaps it was not his usual mount, as he was an Ulster man from what I know of him. He passed away in 2014. The Irish Guards used town names, north and south, on many of their tanks, so perhaps the connection to Ballyragget lies with one of the other crew. I feel a quest coming on Regards, Pat
Hobby-Horse time. Bear with me. That linked site is an example of what I consider to be a problem. That is British Authors concentrating too much on the German side of the picture. Why bother writing so much about Tiger tanks and phantom 88's when doing GOODWOOD? The Sherman ramming the TIger II is a minor incident in a very large battle but has assumed an importance far greater than it deserves. The reason is that a whole industry has sprung up to defend the reputation of the TII and explain away that loss. Current version is that the TII was hit in error by a German gun at the precise moment the Sherman collided with its rear. This excuse is used because a TII crewman who was locked down in the front of the tank says that is what happened. How he could know that (given his crew position) is never explained. The linked article also searches for 2 Tigers that it is claimed were hit by friendly fire north of Cagny. Now we have a full British Armoured Division passing by the flank of these 2 Tigers and they turn to attack them. In seconds 2 are left burning and a third has it gun smashed. The Tiger group commander calls of his attack and drives to the rear and takes no more part in the battle. I prefer the KISS version. Tigers attack Shermans. 3 Tigers are hit. Good shooting by the Shermans. If you think I am being a bit harsh here check this description on the IWM Film Listing. The last sentence is disgrace. IWM Film - Record
Micheal et all. I concur with your grief over the misinterpretation of events or information for the lack of better explanation. I seem to recall the army did a study of the battlefield post Goodwood, which I might have with me, and I will check and see if it provides any info on your query. I believe it is quite detailed, so here is to hoping for a nugget.
The beauty of that air pic is that if the 2 tanks are shown in the photo(and I could be wrong) then it settles the time as we know when IG entered the arena. The problem with the times is no one is sure which Time Zone was being used by the aircraft. Daglish attempts to sort it out but as he settled on noon then he could not 'see' the 2 tanks on the photo as it 'did not happen' until later in the afternoon. If that is the TII/M4 locked together then it is much later than noon. Now I could spend £60 for a copy of the air view but I also want a copy of the early July photo of the Rauray area to find all the wrecks in that area. I want a photo of Villers Bocage to check the wrecks there. In short I 'want' dozens of the buggers. I think NCAP is OK but I suspect the decision to publish mainly non-action Normandy views is deliberate in order to generate sales.
True, and what is all the more interesting is the starboard wing section of a twin-engine aircraft, maybe a DC3, in the foreground. That does not show up in the images you have posted. And it looks well weather beaten, which makes me wonder when the shot taken, post war?
These are the scenes that the IWM think might show 'lack of urgency' in British troops. B9292 & B9293
It is a radial engined fighter. Thunderbolt or FW 190. The photo is some time after the event. These are much earlier
The landing gear suggests a twin engine type of an aircraft that used a radial engine with four blades. My mistake. I was taking the engine bearer arms as part of the landing gear. A four bladed prop on a radial engine points towards a P-47.
Regarding the reconnaissance photo, It was taken on sortie US7GR/2806, flown by Lt. John H. Ross, 22nd PRS, 7th PRG on the 8th August in a F5-C PR Lightning (42-67566). Target was the Rocquantcourt - St. Pierre - Flers - Vire area. Unfortunately I have no 'up' or down' times. The aircraft was written off following a belly landing at Le Culot-East (Y-10) in December of 1944. Regards, Pat
I wonder did Lt. Ross hold onto his Log Book... He is featured in this still-in-progress documentary film.
I used a photo from Aug to show the area I am interested in and its distance from Cagny. That is US7GP-2806 The GOODWOOD air view was taken on July 18 and Daglish has Appendix III & X on the sortie and pilot. Problem being that it is not known what time Zone the Squadron was using and that means a possible 2 hour window. I presume the photo in Daglish I am using was taken from this set 16/0727 Hubert-Folie; Lower Normandy; France | NCAP - National Collection of Aerial Photography miéville; Lower Normandy; France | NCAP - National Collection of Aerial Photography
I am sure somewhere in the USAAF files it would be indicated as to what time zone was being used; would it not have been the same as the rest of the allied forces during that period? Page 140 to 142 in "The Panzers and the Battle of Normandy" by Georges Bernage covers the German account of the two Tigers being lit up by their own flak.
Micheal, Looking at the image again in post #1, the two objects circled in red appear to be very close to the road, of not in the ditch, whereas in the pictures of the two tanks at ground level suggest they are not that close at all; maybe some 30 to 40 yards from the tree line. Stephen
Stephen There doesn't appear to be any hedge alongside the road, which itself *could* easily be hidden by long grass in a ground level photo. There's at least one photo taken from the other side of the Tiger II which is equally inconclusive, ie doesn't prove or disprove Michael's theory (which by the way I think is quite valid). Cheers Sean
That is the problem really. We can read what we want into the image and only an inspection of the original will settle it once and for all. On another note I made all my own plot maps before they started putting them on NCAP This is about the most convoluted sortie!
Hi All, Michael, I don't have the book; can you tell me the name of the No.16 Squadron pilot who flew the sortie on the 18th July - I am going to download the Squadron's ORB for July...unless someone already has it? I could be wrong, but I think the shadows in the extract you posted from the frame of this sortie appear to be falling on the NW side of the objects they are reflecting. If such be the case, then the sun is in the SE, indicating a time somewhat prior to noon. Another thing...could the object you circled in red be a third part of an aircraft wreckage debris field, with the other two major portions visible extending to the SE in the extract? Stephen's mention of a twin engined aircraft above has me wondering if this might be part of Major Sach's Marauder (41-31961) 455th BS / 323rd BG, USAAF? There is a sketch map of the crash location in the MACR on Fold3, but I don't have access to my PC just now to check it. However, the aircraft was lost on a run in to the Caen Road Junction targets on the 6th June while using the Caen - Mezidon/Canon railway as an approach line. Nice sortie index finder charts BTW Michael - how extensive is your collection? Regards, Pat