Sortie US7GR_1730 [06-JUN-1944]

Discussion in 'NCAP' started by Pat Curran, Jun 18, 2014.

  1. hans_ni-hi

    hans_ni-hi Guest
    Guest

    La Seulles Riviere

    Hi Guys,

    Frame 3050 and 4076 concatenated showing Courseulles-sur-Mer. Source: NCAP

    [​IMG]

    Frame 4072 is the intersection of D7 with the road into the Chateau.
    https://www.google.de/maps/@49.3289588,-0.4283666,694m/data=!3m1!1e3

    Frame 4071 is a smaller Chateau in the south of Bernieres-sur-Mer at 27 Rue de la Crieux.
    https://www.google.de/maps/place/27+Rue+de+la+Crieux,+14990+Berni%C3%A8res-sur-Mer,+Frankreich/@49.3286768,-0.4245276,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x480a5f261182911d:0x2e1b422bbbfdd569
     
  2. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,634
    17
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Hans,

    Can you clarify the frame numbers you have located in your post #79 above please?

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  3. hans_ni-hi

    hans_ni-hi Guest
    Guest

    Hi Pat,

    the pano is composed from a series of 8 (5+3) frames. The top 5 frames are Frame
    8068
    8067
    8066
    8065
    8064

    The bottom 3 frames are
    8083
    8062
    8061
    all from US7-1730.

    All show a sequence of locations starting in Bernieres-sur-Mer (8061) along D7 and later a local street into Seulles Riviere ending with Frame 8068. There is a small gap between both groups. Frame 8063 and 8064 don't overlap. The center piece of D7 between both villages is w/o frame from this series.
    I think we can use the pano to locate
    4071 (confirmed)
    4072 (confirmed)
    4073
    4074
    4075
    4076 (confirmed)
    alongside the D7 into Seulles Riviere. I still need to check for available port and starboard pairs and IGN 1947 evidence.

    Hans
     
  4. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,634
    17
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Thanks Hans,

    I am putting together a html table index of your findings for posting here, so I just wanted to be sure as to which frames you had found in post #79.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  5. wojtarak

    wojtarak Guest
    Guest

    By the way.

    I have made quick check of all frames from sorties US7/1730, and I did not find this photos:

    3021
    4005
    4057
    4059
    8092
    8095
    P_0005
    P_0089
    P_0090
    P_0094
    P_0096
    S_0062
    S_0063

    Does it mean that this frames are not exist ? or have not been scaned ?

    and P_0091 has a wrong location: 49.348176, 0.547643 - should be 49.348176, -0.547643 but that is a detail.
    I will try to start searching a new frames by the end of this week.

    Regards

    Wojtek
     
  6. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,634
    17
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Wojtek,

    The reason could be that they are not scanned - or that they are not in the NCAP collection at all.

    NCAP do not hold the negatives, only original master prints which were handed over in the 1960s. I suspect a bit of 'cherry picking' occurred sometime prior to this handover and certain prints never made it to the archives.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  7. wojtarak

    wojtarak Guest
    Guest

    Hi Pat,

    Are you sure that NCAP do not hold any photos in negatives ? Or you are talking just about this sortie US7/1730.

    A dozens of frames which I ordered from NCAP looks like scan from a negative not from a prints. Most prints which I've ordered come from NARA.

    Regards,

    Wojtek
     
  8. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,634
    17
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    That's my understanding Wojtek,

    All their frames are scanned from master prints. I recall asking them about negatives a few years back and they said that The National Archives only received master prints during the handover from the RAF in the 1960s. TNA in turn passed on all they had to NCAP (formerly TARA).

    Check with Kevin in the NCAP office in case this is no longer the case - his email is ncap@rcahms.gov.uk

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  9. sirjahn

    sirjahn Active Member
    Researcher

    Oct 24, 2012
    103
    0
    Film negatives are much too flammable for safe long term storage which is why they made several high quality prints from each negative and then destroyed the negatives in the 1950's and 1960's.

    For the missing frames sometimes if the analyst felt that a particular frame was duplicated in one or more other frames then they didn't have those duplicates printed. That is usually shown/detected in the sortie map plots made of the photo mission.
     
  10. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,634
    17
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi All,

    Below is the list of all 239 'un-locatables' from sortie US7GR/1730. Any frame with an entry in the 'Post #' column has been found by Hans and the number in that column refers to his post number in this thread. I'll add links from this column back to his individual posts with the next edit.

    <iframe src="http://www.normandy.whitebeamimages.ie/ncap/un-locatables_found/sortie_us7gr_1730/html_table_for_ncap_unlocatables_found_sortie_us7-1730_index2.html" width="830px" height="400px"> frameborder="2" </iframe>​

    If anyone spots any errors in the table, please let me know.

    Well done again Hans :D

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  11. firstflabn

    firstflabn Active Member
    Researcher

    Dec 18, 2012
    77
    0
    Not true. NARA has their WWII recon negatives. Tens of thousands of nitrate base movie prints also exist in various archives. Special storage requirements including sophisticated fire suppression systems make it an expensive proposition, but that's an economic question, not a technical one.
     
  12. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,634
    17
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    In any case, for the frames we do have... :D

    We, or rather Hans has, found 19.7% of the 'un-locatables' from US7GR/1730 if my math is correct, so we have many more hours of searching to find the remainder.

    It would be a great tribute to Lt Col Shoop and his aircraft, F5B Lightning 42-67382, if we could find as many as possible of his 'lost souls'.

    Also, I know the NCAP guys are especially anxious to find all frames from sorties flown on D-Day for obvious reasons - demand from research customers is much higher for this date than any other - at least for Normandy sorties.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  13. hans_ni-hi

    hans_ni-hi Guest
    Guest

    Courseulles-sur-Mer
    Hi Guys,

    2 more. Frame 3048/4074 shown below concatenated. Close to the port. Source: NCAP
    [​IMG]
    Together with Frame 4075 already tagged with the location they are shown on the IGN Cover 1947 highlighted with small arrows. Source: IGN
    [​IMG]
    Here todays view. Source:Google Maps
    [​IMG]
    Please notice the large square building at lower right. It can be seen as well as something 'square' in the Frames 8064/8065 from the pano.
     
  14. hans_ni-hi

    hans_ni-hi Guest
    Guest

    Langrunes-sur-Mer, Bernieres-sur-Mer, Courseulles-sur-Mer
    Hi Guys,
    more frames resolved.
    Courseulles-sur-Mer
    Frame 4049.See the high res IGN cover from 1947. Source: IGN
    [​IMG]
    Frame 3069/4105. Frame 8067 has the location at 3 o'clock.
    [hr]
    Frame 4073 can be linked to the perimeter of Courseulles-sur Mer via Frame 8064.
    [hr]
    Langrues-sur-Mer
    Frame 4068 can be linked to Frame 8059.
    Frame 4069 can be linked to Frame 8060
    [hr]
    Here high res cover from IGN 1947 for Frame 4068. Source: IGN
    [​IMG]
    Here the high res cover from IGN 1947 for Frame 4069. Source: IGN
    [​IMG]
     
  15. hans_ni-hi

    hans_ni-hi Guest
    Guest

    Bernieres-sur-Mer
    Frame 4070
    Frame 4071
    Frame 4072
    Frame 4107
    Frame 3002/4002 Wojtek's earlier find.

    Located in the IGN Cover from 1947. Source: IGN
    [​IMG]
     
  16. hans_ni-hi

    hans_ni-hi Guest
    Guest

    Arromanches-les-Bains, Colleville, Graye-sur-Mer
    Hi Guys,
    some more from the back-end.
    Graye-sur-Mer
    Frame P002
    Frame P003
    Frame P004

    Colleville / Omaha Beach
    Frame P006 can be identified with Frame 8028
    Frame 8026 can be identified with Frame 8027

    Arromanches-les-Bains
    Frame 8081
    Frame 8082
    Frame 8081 and 8082 can be identified with Frame 3033 from sortie 4/0166 from 4 Squadron (RAF).
    [hr]
    Colleville / Omaha Beach
    Frame pair 3022/4023 and Frame 4022 can also be located to Omaha Beach. See as ref Frame 7017 from sortie US7 1743. Source: NCAP
    [​IMG]
    [hr]
    Omaha Beach
    Frame 8026 can be identified and linked to Omaha Beach with Frame 8027.
    Frame 8029 can be identified with Frame 8030. In the center is a field visible with one 'round corner'. Some light grey. This same field is spared by the cloud in Frame 8029.
     
  17. hans_ni-hi

    hans_ni-hi Guest
    Guest

    Gold Beach
    Ver-sur-Mer
    Hi Guys,
    Frame 3051/4078 & Frame 8070
    Frame 3052/4079 & Frame 8071
    The relation between the Frames 3052/4079 and 8071 is not so obvious. The AoI in Frame 8071 is covered with clouds. However the x-ing at 5 o'clock can be verified, at 7 o'clock the distinced field spared by the clouds and at 9 o'clock a path into the AoI can be seen. This matches with IGN cover from 1947 to Ver-sur-Mer. The frames concatenated. The bigger street is D112 going countryside. If I am not mistaking single file of soldiers including 2 vehilces can be see moving south close to the intersection with Rue du Pavillion.
    [​IMG]
    Todays view. Source Google Maps
    https://www.google.de/maps/place/Ver-sur-Mer,+Frankreich/@49.3406518,-0.519633,671m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x480a5787dd46a513:0x40c14484fbcd3a0
     
  18. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,634
    17
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Hans,

    Well done again on these new frames. You are making excellent progress :D

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  19. hans_ni-hi

    hans_ni-hi Guest
    Guest

    Pano Gold Breach - Le Grande Rau - Le Paisty Vert
    Hi Guys,
    no new discovery but a concatenation of a series of pictues starting 8083 til 8091. Source: NCAP
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,634
    17
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi All,

    Hans has emailed his latest kmz file for all US7GR_1730 'un-locatables' found up to and including 28th February last. I have uploaded this file to the ADrive account here (2.8KBs) for those who wish to view it in Google Earth.

    Many thanks once again Hans for all your time and effort on this sortie.

    Regards,

    Pat
     

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