Hi Niels, From the horse's mouth Page 334... Page 335... In addition, there is a 'Notes, sources, anecdotes and eye-witness accounts' section beginning on page 311 which I will refer to from now on when quoting both directly and interpretively Regards, Pat
Thanks for posting Pat. Good to know what sources were and weren't used. There was serious room to use additional original documents! 'Grenadier' is yet another book of questionable reputation, I've been told it's an entertaining read though. Can't comment on 'Invasion 44' nor 'Der 20 Juli in Paris' since I've neither read nor looked into those. From what I do remember from Hayn's book, it was one of the more objective (less novel style) books from the German perspective. It also specifies the sources of the different accounts, making it at least somewhat easier to value their content and reliablityl. Unfortuntely I've 'misplaced' my pdf of it (made available by a German university IIRC), and can't seem to find a new one. May pick up a paper copy instead.
I think that's applies to all of them, doesn't it? I'd agree with that. It does give some insight into Meyer's personality (he was a confident chap) and is not at all objective, but a good read none the less. Kind of glosses over certain events.... Anyway, entertaining is about right. I found "Fury" entertaining Sean
Absolutely. Before the invasion there were a few exceptions, but by early August losses were considerable in all of those. And newly arriving divisions were basically never close to authorized strenght. In general, and this applies to all German units, divisions should not be considered as such just because they still carry that name. Théir strength becomes more questionable the longer they have been in action, whereas the losses of allied units are usually evened out in the end. PS maybe we should split off some of these posts. They're distracting us from the topic. Sorry abour that :blush:
Not at all Niels, I think you should keep posting here as the German angle progresses through the book - it becomes far more complicated as the story moves towards the finale on the 19th August and I would value your take on the author's descriptions. I want to open an American thread tomorrow, starting with the crimes committed by George Patton's dog 'Willie' Thanks Niels, Pat
To continue from the American thread post #16. Feldmarshall von Kluge received a telephone call from Generaloberst Alfred Jodl, (Chief of the Operations Staff, OKW) on the 2nd August at his HQ in Saint Germain en Laye: The official order came through later that night at 23:45 hours. It was signed by Hitler and read: Von Kluge very much wanted to retake Avranches, but only in order to establish a holding line behind which he would withdraw the Seventh Army. One of the most important moments in the Normandy Campaign was at hand as Hitler added: Hitler however had become suspicious of his Generals following the July plot. Von Kluge did have prior knowledge of the attempt on the Fuhrer's life but had received very early intelligent that the plot had failed. Consequently he refused to order the arrest of SS units in Paris. This refusal had the effect of distancing von Kluge from the conspiracy in the immediate aftermath. Nonetheless, Hitler sent an 'envoy' to France to ensure his orders were promptly and correctly acted upon. The man chosen for this mission was the artillery General Walter Warlimont. This man was not trusted by Hitler either and so seems a strange choice of envoy. Having first flown to Strasbourg direct from the 'Wolfsschanze' at Rastenburg, Warlimont traveled by armoured car to see von Kluge's Chief of Staff, General Günther Blumentritt at Saint Germain en Laye. Warlimont next visited von Kluge at La Roche Guyon where he stayed overnight. He appears to have been under the impression that the order from Hitler was to re-establish the Avranches - St Lo front in its entirety and was embarrassed the following morning, 3rd August when von Kluge showed him the telegram from the Wolfschanze directing the counter-offensive towards Avranches only. Following this meeting with Von Kluge, Warlimont next set off for Livarot later on the morning of the 3rd August to meet with General Heinrich Eberbach, G.O.C. Fifth Panzer Group, who was in command of the armoured units which were now to be redistributed to the Avranches front. More follows... Regards, Pat
To continue from page 41... General Walter Warlimont seems to have been keen to garnish support from the German commanders in Normandy for the proposed counter offensive code named 'Operation Lüttich' and finally his last call on the 3rd of August was to Waffen SS General Josef "Sepp" Dietrich, commander of the I SS Panzer Korps. When the SS General failed to show the expected enthusiasm to this suggestion, Warlimont went on... Sepp Dietrich could see the serious implications with the order from OKW. He replied: Sepp Dietrich knew it was useless to argue further with the representative of the Fuhrer. He could see the folly of moving his I SS Panzer Korps from the Caen sector, knowing that... Below is table III from page 43 showing the available German units in Normandy on the 3rd of August and their dispositions: More follows. Regards, Pat
To continue from page 45... I think a map is now in order to show the German positions around Mortain at the start of 'Operation Lüttich' as per the locations described above. The best one I can find is this copy from an unknown source: I also had a look to see if there was any German photos of the preparation for 'Operation Lüttich' available and found that the author of 'Ruckmarsch! - The German Retreat From Normandy,' Jean Paul Pallud had located a roll of still film shot by combat photographer Kriegsberichter Theobald as he accompanies a unit from the 84th Infantry Division during they march westwards from the Pas de Calais region, where they were part of the Fifteenth Army, to relieve the 116th Panzer Division for use at Mortain. I found two of the photos which Kriegsberichter Theobald shot in the Bundesarchiv and for which Jean Paul Pallaud found the locations for in 'Ruckmarsch!': The locations found by Jean are here (top photo) and somewhere around the hamlet of La Haute-Louverie here, which I cannot quite track down from his 'then and now' shot of the bottom photo on the D157 road between Ger and Beauchene. If anyone has this excellent book, I would be grateful for the location if you find it on GE. Ger is about 8 miles or so south-west of Flers More follows... Regards, Pat
The map is number X from 'Breakout and Pursuit' http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-E-Breakout/index.html
Thanks Niels, Jean Paul Pallud dated the roll of film to the 2nd or 3rd August. There is another photo somewhere in the Bundesarchiv database which shows a 116th Panzer Division tank or personnel carrier passing a group of infantry going in the opposite direction, again during the preparations for the Mortain counter attack. I'll see if I can find it tonight. Regards, Pat
Hello Pat An interesting story - I like the photo of the German infantry looking out for Jabo's. The piece below "The 2nd SS Panzer Division (the Das Reich Division) commanded by General Lammerding, was recalled from Toulouse via Tulle and Oradour. Its starting base was east of Hill 314, and it was to form a three column frontal attack on Hill 285 via Abbaye Blanche on Mortain itself and eventually on Romagny." this seems out of context for an August battle, as the author appears, to me, to have "recalled" the Division just before the August battle when in fact they had been in Normandy for weeks. I have just finished reading, again, "Das Reich - The March of the 2nd SS Panzer Division through France, June 1944" by Max Hastings, and 2nd SS Panzer set out in early June mainly from Montauban, which is above Toulouse, had trouble with marquisards en-route, and some units took part in massacres in Tulle on 9 June and Oradour-sur-Glane on 10 June., hence, no doubt, the reason why those places were mentioned. "The Das Reich Division trickled into the rear areas of the battlefront piecemeal between 15 and 30 June. The elements which had remained at Toulouse under Major Wisliceny followed on 7 July. To the intense chagrin of its officers, units were committed independently to shore up the sagging German front. The Division did not begin to fight as an integral force under Lammerding's command until 10 July, by which date it had already suffered heavy losses." If you haven't already read the book I can highly recommend it - I got a cheap set of Max Hastings paperbacks "Bomber Command", Das Reich" and "The Battle for the Falklands" from The Book People months back, and I am slowly working my way through them and reliving 1982. One thing I do remember from those days is seeing the Victory Parade and flypast in the City of London, something I never expected to see in my lifetime! Regards Allan
Hi Allan, It may be something to do with the translation from French to English. I am working from the Elek Books of London English edition published in 1965. The book was originally published a year earlier by Presses de la Cite, Paris in French under the title 'Stalingrad en Normandie' Regards, Pat
Hello Pat No problem - and it certainly isn't detracting from my enjoyment of the continuing story. Hopefully my small contribution fills in the gap as to how the Das Reich reached the Normandy battlefield. I remember seeing 'Stalingrad en Normandie' on some of my earlier trips to France in the early sixties on my Vespa scooter(s), but never purchased it as I cannot read French - what an admission from somebody who lived there for 3 years, between 1952 - 1955 - but in my defence it was a long time back, and I was a very small boy at the time (between 6 - 9) and educated at a NATO school, and although taught French at the time it was not carried on when I reverted to UK education as nobody taught foreign languages at primary school then!! Regards Allan
Hi Allan, I have been wondering about Jean Paul's 'now' photo for the infantrymen in the ditch. Cannot publish it here as I do not have permission but I just cannot locate the bend shown therein anywhere near La Haute-Louverie. Just for the heck of it, I went up the side road in Beauchene where the drover is frantically driving his cattle in the other photo, and noticed a step in the left hand hedge here which appears to be the same height as the rise in the wire fence level behind the infantrymen, but the orchard behind the wire is much too flat for that location... ...I could, if I was that way inclined, allow these quests to drive me round the bend Regards, Pat
Pat, you do realise the road is turning to right, right? (Those white posts are on the outside of a bend) The photo was taken at about the left (west) edge of the long streched patch of gravel. Try 48°41'10.63"N 0°44'54.73"W
Hi Niels, Ah! the penny has dropped :blush: That was my error alright; I thought the road was turning to the left in Jean Paul's 'now' photo. Below is an extract from 1947 IGN cover showing the orchard behind the infantrymen, and I presume, with the wire fence on the north side of the road: Only for you I could have wasted hours in a hopeless quest Regards, Pat
To continue from page 46... Having now met with von Kluge, Eberbach and Sepp Dietrich, General Walter Warlimont - the Deputy Chief of Staff, OKW and Hitler's 'envoy' in Normandy, was finding it difficult to find any of these officers with enthusiasm for 'Operation Lüttich'. However, the Seventh Army commander, "Papa" Hausser, the man who would have to lead the counter-attack, remained silent as to the prospects for success. Instead, he dictated his 'Order of the Day' for the 3rd August: Hausser must have been mesmerised by the American show of unlimited men and material, but nonetheless went back to writing his Order: Canon Blouet's account of life in Mortain goes on... More follows. Anyone know the location of the Seventh Army HQ at La Magendiere Park? I can't see the park marked on the modern IGN map. Thanks, Pat
Pat, I think your guess here is as good as any. I can't find anywhere else with similar spelling. In fact, it seems to be spelt la Magentiere in most online directories, la Mageantiere on the IGN maps, so la Magendiere sounds certainly plausible. This is fairly common, by the way. My own address is spelt one way on most navigation systems, another way on the IGN maps but the sign beside the post boxes is spelt differently still. Handy if you're not keen on visitors, I suppose.... Cheers, Sean
Thanks Sean, I see now that Eddy Florentin is saying that Hill 314, where Hausser is observing from, is "not very far from" Seventh Army TAC HQ. Most likely then at La Magendiere Park / La Mageantiere Manor, near the hamlet of Bion. Regards, Pat
To continue from page 58... 'Papa' Hausser, Seventh Army commander, was anxious to launch Operation 'Lüttich' as early as the 3rd August. Hitler decreed otherwise however, believing that the more American forces passed through the Avranches bottleneck, the greater the German victory would be when these forces were cut off in Brittany. Hitler decreed the offensive should commence no earlier than the 8th August. Cables flowed back and forth between von Kluge and Berlin until finally the Field Marshal had had enough; he ordered the attack to commence on Monday, the 7th August despite the fact that not all his armour had reached their jumping off positions. Von Kluge's haste was well founded as he correctly deduced that the Americans had become aware of the German preparations and were already wheeling to the east to meet the onslaught. Hitler however would later use the early launching of the offensive against the Field Marshal, who in any event was now coming under scrutiny as to his prior knowledge of the July Plot. The following excerpt from page 59 shows how disjointed the German opening moves in the attack were: Sure would like to get a look at that crash site - but, as of today's date, there is no digitised NCAP cover for La Tournerie :-/ Despite the disjointed opening moves, by 0100 hours on the morning of the 8th August, Papa Hausser was not unhappy with the progress of the attack. All the initial objectives had been reached: Bellefontaine and Saint-Barthelemy in the north Bion and Saint-Jean-du-Corail in the south Mortain captured (but crucially, Hill 314 only encircled) in the centre Hausser reported to von Kluge at the end of Day 1 (7th August): Below is the situation map at the end of Monday, 7th August: More follows... Regards, Pat