Hi All, I have found another British Pathe film with a collection of gun camera footage from USAAF single seat fighters. The footage is from different sorties but again, is all from the 6th June 1944. The title is 'VIII Fighter Command Attacking Ground Targets' (Film ID #1891.01). The footage runs for 8 minutes and 27 seconds, and the times in and out for each segment are set out in the table below: <table width="825" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="1" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <tr bgcolor="#0000FF"> <td height="32" colspan="7"><div align="center"> <p><font color="#FFFF66" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong> British Pathe Film 'VIII Fighter Command Attacking Ground Targets' (BP Film #1891.01)</strong></font> </p> <p><font color="#FFFF66" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>Index to Gun Camera Footage 6th June 1944 </strong></font></p> </div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#0033FF"> <td width="153" rowspan="2"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pilot </font></div></td> <td width="144" rowspan="2"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">USAAF VIII Fighter Command Unit</font></div></td> <td width="111" rowspan="2"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Combat Film No. </font> </div></td> <td colspan="2"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Time</font> </div> </td> <td width="198" rowspan="2"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Airfield / Aircraft Type </font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#0033FF"> <td width="77"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">In</font> </div></td> <td width="75" bgcolor="#0033FF"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Out</font> </div> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">2nd Lt R.M. Leidy </font></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">360th FS / 356th FG </font></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5664</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">00:00</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">00:08</font></div></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Martlesham / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maj. J. R. Thorne </font></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">361st FS / 356th FG </font></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5668</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">00:09</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">00:26</font></div></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Martlesham / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lt. E. P. Lee </font></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">361st FS / 356th FG </font></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5670</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">00:27</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">00:48</font></div></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Martlesham / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">F/O E. L. Decker </font></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">361st FS / 356th FG </font></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5671</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">00:49</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">01:27</font></div></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Martlesham / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Capt. H. A. Ogden </font></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">361st FS / 356th FG </font></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5675</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">01:28</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">02:29</font></div></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Martlesham / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lt. D. F. Thwaites </font></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">361st FS / 356th FG </font></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5679</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">02:30</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">02:36</font></div></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Martlesham / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lt. E. A. Kovacs </font></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">361st FS / 356th FG </font></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5682</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">02:37</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">03:00</font></div></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Martlesham / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lt J. Wadlow </font></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">359th FS / 356th FG </font></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5685</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">03:01</font></div></td> <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">03:35</font></div></td> <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Martlesham / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#99FF00"> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lt. Sisson </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">61st FS / 56th FG </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5707</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">03:36</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">03:50</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Boxted / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#99FF00"> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Capt. Carter </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">61st FS / 56th FG </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5711</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">03:51</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">04:18</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Boxted / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#99FF00"> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">F/O Vitale </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">62nd FS / 56th FG </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5714</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">04:19</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">05:24</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Boxted / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#99FF00"> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lt. Cherry </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">62nd FS / 56th FG </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5717</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">05:25</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">06:08</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Boxted / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#99FF00"> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lt. King </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">62nd FS / 56th FG </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5718</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">06:09</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">06:19</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Boxted / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#99FF00"> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lt. Edens </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">62nd FS / 56th FG </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5721</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">06:20</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">07:42</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Boxted / P-47 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#99FF00"> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Capt. Tucker </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">62nd FS / 56th FG </font></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5719</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">07:43</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">08:27</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Boxted / P-47 </font></td> </tr> </table> I note two of the pilots have the rank of 'F/O' - so I presume they must be either RAF or Commonwealth pilots flying with the USAAF. While the main thrust of this thread will be to see if its possible to find any of the locations seen in the footage, any additional information or photos on either the pilots or units mentioned above can be posted here. Regards, Pat
Quick Update... From this French page, I see that F/O Edmund L. Decker was killed in action on the 8th June - just two days after the film here was shot. Regards, Pat
Hello Pat Now on PC, was on tablet earlier - according to CWGC only 12 people named Decker are on record http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1 a mixture of British, Australian and Canadians, and only 12 total for both WW1 and WW2 Maybe an MACR report would give nationality of Edmund L Decker? Or see here http://www.americanairmuseum.com/person/50472 or here for Flight Officer rank http://www.armyairforces.com/Order-of-ranks-for-the-USAAF-during-WWII-m186158.aspx which would seem to confirm he was an American Photo here of Donald Demarest Button and Les Mellor, clearly showing USAAF uniform in at least two photos http://www.bomber-command.info/mosquitophotographs.htm and their Mosquito FB VI Q-bitch. Basic details of him appear in ancestry.com, but I don't have a membership, so cannot proceed. No idea on your man though. I believe Donald Demarest Button was an "Eagle" and also rumoured to have been on ASR with Warwicks, then joined up with Les Mellor when they went to a Coastal Command OCU for Beaufighters, then to a Mosquito OTU, and on to 107 Squadron in 2TAF, operating from France. When their tour finished he moved to the USAAF and Les never met up with him again, although Les is now in Canada he has not been able to trace him, and believes he has passed away - Les is 95, and married a cousin of mine whom he met whilst doing his Nav training in Canada, hence cousin by marriage. regards Allan
Hi Allan, F/O Decker seems to be American true and true - I was not aware that the rank of Flight Officer (F/O) was used by the USAAF. He now rests in Plot D Row 16 Grave 40, Colleville-sur-Mer according to this page. I also note he had won the DFC. No photo yet. His footage (00:49-01:27) is one of three segments showing the same train under attack. The other two being from the cameras of Lt. E. P. Lee (00:27-00:48) and Lt. E. A. Kovacs (02:37-03:00), all three being 361st FS / 356th FG pilots. It appears the three are engaged in the same attack at the same time, but F/O Decker's footage shows a high altitude segment not present in the others' footage. Trying to establish if it's the location of the train attack, but even if its not, it might help to establish the general area in which to see the train attack. Interestingly, in F/O Decker's footage you can see the other two aircraft of Lee and Kovacs for three seconds at time mark 01:07-01:09 - the yellow circles are the two aircraft of Lee and Kovacs, with their shadows circled in blue: The above screen captures are taken as the footage is running with the 'pause' button clicked. The BP stills are much better quality, but unfortunately there are none showing the two companion aircraft. Stills 68 and 69 below do however show the shadow of one... ...which strangely looks more like the profile of a P-51 than a P-47 with which the 361st Fighter Squadron were still equipped with on D-Day according to Ken Delve in his book 'D-Day - The Air Battle' Anyone able to confirm that the 361st were flying Thunderbolts on D-Day? Thanks, Pat
Hello Pat It states here that they changed to the Mustang in November 1944 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/356th_Fighter_Group http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/356thfg.php and this one shows P51D serials from about November 1944 as well. Regards Allan
Hello Pat I came to the same conclusion as you - Mustangs - but as you have identified the Squadron and Group we have to accept that they are Thunderbolts, strange as it might seem to us both. Presuming that the film data is correct, and why should it not be correct? I came across these old links from me about British Armoured Divisions, and 11th Armoured Division in particular, when a piece that I posted way back in December 2011 on rafcommands.com (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?12190-Slightly-OT-identifying-British-Army-Unit) came back to life today!! http://www.kerynne.com/games/BritishArmouredRegimentTOE.html http://www.kerynne.com/games/British11thArmouredDivision.html http://www.kerynne.com/games/BritishInfantryBttnTOE.html I have added 7th Armoured Division because of my personal interest in 1 Rifle Brigade 22nd Armoured Brigade (I have a photo of his M3 White Half Track and his section, taken in Germany about April '45) http://www.kerynne.com/games/British7thArmouredDivision.html and, finally, 79th Armoured Division with some models http://www.kerynne.com/games/British79thAD.html which states "The flail regiments had standard 51-53 on red serials" and although they don't identify our armoured unit with the Sherman flail, they might, perhaps, give you some more posters for your wall!! regards Allan
Hi Pat, Allen, over the past days I started looking into the BP film 1891.01. Not able to locate any of the scenes yet however in the 1st sequence from 361 SQDN 356 FG Maj Thorne and F/O Decker have detected (or attacked) this convoy as captured here in 2 small panos. BP_1891.01 Maj Thorne stills 16_18_21_22 BP_1891.01 FO_Decker stills 56_59_60 Also in parallel F/O Decker, LT Kovacs and LT Lee did also attack what I labeled as 'Short Train' instead of the longer one pointed out by Pat earlier. BP_1891.01 Lt Lee still 45 BP_1891.01 F/O_Decker still 61 BP_1891.01 Lt Kovacs 174 I am starting to group more stills from BP 1891.01 as a starter for location finding.
Hi Hans, Have a look at mission #136 here - I think its the only good fit for the 361st FS pilots listed in the film. If I am correct, you need to be looking in the Tours - Le Mans area. BTW, I think its the same train - watch for the field shaped like a forefinger! Good hunting Regards, Pat
Hans, A bit more... This scene at time mark 1min07sec from the Critical Past archive (link here) is not in the BP Film #1891.01 and shows the train passing the 'forefinger' field before its brought to a halt: <iframe width="850" height="520" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RNpM0P7kpAU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Is that a river in the foreground at time mark 1min07sec? In all scenes showing this field in the BP film, the 'finger tip' is pointing to the track at what looks to be at least 100 metres at left-rear of the stopped train, . Hope this helps, Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, thanks. Will start with the Le Mans Tour area. In your new footage I do believe also at 1:07 mins there is a river visible. The shadow of the line of trees is reflecting on the water. You are correct with pointing out that what I labeled as 'short train' is basically one and the same train you highlighted in your earlier post. [/u]
Hi Hans and All, This is a neat new feature on the IGN site! Drag one pane and the other follows in sync...no need for a second monitor anymore. The panes are controlled by the drop down lists on top left and can be un-synched by the buttons at right. Very useful Regards, Pat
A bit more digging... I am now pretty certain that the 361st FS was equipped with P-47s on the 6th June...and almost as certain that the two aircraft seen in the attack on the train are P-51s. If such be the case, it can only mean that the footage is not captioned correctly. The question then is how big is the error - are the P-51s part of the same 67th Fighter Wing? Hopefully they are and we then only need to check where P-51 equipped squadrons from that Wing were operating on the 6th June...only Does anyone see P-47s in place of my supposed P-51s? Thanks, Pat
My answer from last year still stands - Mustangs - unless somebody else can prove 100% that they are P.47's. Good to see this piece still on the go - the answer is out there, somewhere. Can our US friends come up with definitive unit proof, an ORB equivalent for example? Regards Allan
Hi Hans and All, This map may help you with the location of the train attack: Happy hunting Regards, Pat
Hi All, I have just been looking at a valley floor approximately 15Kms north of Evreux at the small village of Amfreville-sur-Iton. There is a single line track running through the valley and I am wondering if its a candidate location for the attack on the train. I note with interest the formal row of trees standing along the bank of the River Iton at lower left in this Google Maps view, but my work PC has JAVA turned off, so I cannot check post war IGN cover to see what this valley looked like before the industrial complex was built. Anyone able to check please? Thanks, Pat