Hi All, Our recent mention of F/O Edmund L. Decker of the 361st FS / 356th FG USAAF in the 'Gun Camera Footage [BP Film #1891.01]' thread has brought us a request for help with an ongoing project centred on this pilot. The project is the work of Audrey Calovich, assisted by her history teacher Lisa Lauck at Sion School in Kansas City, which was also Decker's home town. There is an extensive article on Audrey and her project here and her mum, Kris Marriott-Calovich has contacted us seeking any additional help which we might be able to offer Audrey. I tracked down the MACR for the crash and uploaded it to our cloud here (9.3MB PDF). From the overlay therein, it would appear the crash site is somewhere in the vicinity of Bouconvillers if this French page is correct. The general location ties in well with the overlay in the MACR - 25 miles SW of Beauvais. Kris has sent me on some additional information on F/O Decker: Any research which would add to Audrey's work would be very much appreciated by all concerned. Lets see what we can do to help guys - we have a bit of catching up to do though, as Audrey has done a huge amount of work on this project already Regards, Pat
Hello Pat Thanks for the additional information about Edmund Decker, especially "At some point he left for Canada and joined the RCAF. The date and reason are unknown." as he was one of many Americans who wanted to get in to the fight and risked losing their citizenship by crossing in to Canada and enlisting in the RCAF before Pearl Harbor (and we are grateful that they did take this step), it is just a pity that they have no date, but I would estimate mid-1940 as things hotted up this side of the Atlantic, and the BCATP ( British Commonwealth Air Training Plan - plenty of background information here for Kris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Commonwealth_Air_Training_Plan#Canada) came on song, and of course to be a Flight Sergeant this would have to be after he completed flying training, as he would have been of a lower (non NCO) rank until then, and was then ready to be posted to the UK, then to an OTU and on to an operational squadron. I am presuming that because he transferred in to the 8th Air Force of the USAAF that he had already reached the UK, and was serving on an RAF or RCAF squadron. His RCAF NCO status was matched by transferring him over to became a Flight Officer, which I understand was a Warrant Officer type rank at the time, as if he had been commissioned he would have become an equivalent US officer rank. "He was transferred to the USAAF in "August, 1943" (some dates say August 8 another says August 16) After transferring to the USAAF he was part of the 495th Fighter Training Group. Where he was trained to fly P47 Thunderbolts." (See http://www.8thafhs.org/training/495t.htm - which shows it training pilots on P47 Thunderbolts from May 1943, and interestingly originally used Spitfires, which is where his RCAF expertise would have come in handy) "In March of 1943 he was part of the 8th Air Force 365th Fighter Group/361st Fighter Squadron" ( See http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/356thfg.php ). I am presuming that it should be "March of 1944", as http://www.cieldegloire.com/014_decker_e_l.php shows him as being part of that unit from March 1944. Unfortunately he does not feature on the Paradie Archive: Royal Canadian Air Force Personnel 1939 - 1945 - http://aircrewremembered.com/Paradie/ParadieArchiveD.html I hope this helps Kris, Audrey and Lisa and I also hope that they can confirm the photo in http://www.cieldegloire.com/014_decker_e_l.php is of him? regards Allan
Hi Allen, The photo of him in the cockpit - can we say with certainty that the aircraft is a 'razor back' P-47? The positioning of the name on the side ending ...UHRER; is that the crew chief's name or that of the pilot? Thanks, Pat
Hi All, Pat I do believe this is a razorback variation. I am a little bit worried about the photo being F/O Edmund Decker. Decker was only credited with 1 confirmed kill and 1 1/2 possible kills (if I translated the French correctly), but the plane here has 5 Kills. Allan, I was wondering about the name on the plane to. I wonder if it some type of comment about FUHRER Hitler because there does seem to be something below it cropped out. I also noticed no pilots with a name ending in UHRER. There is a group photo of him on the website here: http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery.php?Group=356&Style=item&origStyle=table&Item=158 (Decker is 4th from the right in the top row). There does seem to be some simularity to the cockpit photo though. John
Hi All, I done a search on the Critical Past site last night using the term "361st" (with quotes) and got two pages of hits. Three of them are gun camera footage from the 361st Fighter Squadron on the 7th June, but alas, nothing from the following day. If readers are searching using a similar keyword, be aware that there was also a 361st Fighter Group operating over Normandy during this period. I'll have a look at the British Pathe site tonight. Regards, Pat
Thanks for the updates Pat & John - John, my first thought, like yours, was the score on the P47 being different to that claimed by Decker, and I agree that a similarity exists between the 2 photos - hopefully the three ladies your side of the pond can firm up for us. I will see what I can trace from the RCAF perspective - maybe a list exists somewhere detailing who transferred to the USAAF from the RCAF, with enlistment information etc. I never rule anything out with regard to this sort of thing. More if I find it. regards Allan
Anyone in Colleville this week? It would be great if we could put up a photo of F/O Decker's marker. He rests at Plot D > Row 16 > Grave 40 Thanks guys. I also came across a photo of him on this page of the HonotStates.org site. To my eye, this is not the same man we see on the French page here. Regards, Pat
Interesting. In fact any of the three photos we now have might not be him!! I presume that the ladies don't have a photo of him? regards Allan
Allan and Pat, I compare the two photos and I actually think it could be him... I compare the thin lips kept closed in both photos and the chin, then the general shape of the eyebrows and nose. Even the left eyebrow starts full at the nose, then thins alot halfway over the eye in both photos. I got to rule out hair color because of the pilot cap. In the suit school photo as you study it, cover up his ears and hair and focus on the face only. I have to at least consider they are the same man...I can't rule it out... But then why pose for a photo in a plane that may not have been his (because of the five kills)? John
Your the expert on identification John The guy in the cockpit seems to have a touch of the thousand yard stare, so he probably looks older than he is. I'll keep digging... Regards, Pat
Not quite sure what this site is about, but someone seems to have 'claimed' F/O Decker's grave only last week. Clicking his entry (4th down) shows both photos, one above the other. Regards, Pat
I'll try to answer or clarify a bit of the information. I'm Audrey's mom, Kris. Audrey and Mrs. Lauck are in Washington, DC and leave for France this Thursday. First, I typo'd the date that Decker joined the 356th fighter group. It should say 1944, not 43. It looks like he joined the RCAF in August of 1941. This info is from a newspaper article on his being missing. That said, the graduation year in the article is wrong. It says 1939, but I have the 1938 yearbook on loan from the high school and that's definitely when he graduated. I had some of the same questions about the photos. Audrey just received a few new photos. I've sent them to Pat and John. They all look different to me, but the eyebrow/nose/mouth are similar. The school photo is of a 17 or 18 year old, the RCAF of a 20 year old, and these last photos are presumably of a 23 year old. Obviously I'm no expert, but he I think he looks older than his years in the last two pictures, kind of like he knows time is running out or it's not a game anymore. But I tend to romanticize. Finally, you'll see a lot of recent activity on Find-a-Grave, etc, because the news articles generated buzz and a few people have been submitting photos and asking the various sites to coordinate the various entries into one entry. I'll keep checking back to see if I can muddy the waters any further. Audrey asked me to pass along her appreciation. She's truly grateful! Thank you! Kris
Hi Kris, Welcome to the Forum and thank you for F/O Decker's Individual Deceased Personnel File (IDPF) which is very much appreciated. A fascinating document in its own right. I'll make it available to members with 'Researcher' status in the Green Room Library tomorrow, but for the moment, here is an interesting receipt filed therein from the RCAF for monies paid to them by the American Army for F/O Decker's kit which he had from his earlier service with them: Is that his RCAF serial number - R.125377 :exclamation: Regards, Pat
Hi All, and hello Kris and Audrey, After reviewing the Missing Air Crew Report for F/O Edmund Decker (MACR 5589) In my opinion am pretty confident that Decker was killed as a result of a high speed stall and crashed after his straffing run. I would note that all the reports describe a hard bank to the left of some sort followed by a crash, and none of them describe any ground fire. Any ground fire and flak are details usually not left out of MACR reports I have read in the past. Also with the target being two trucks it doesnt sound like there would have been much anti aircraft protection in support of these vehicles. I do not have access to the German report but I would be interested in seeing it's claims. My guess is that the Germans may have boasted a success in claiming the downing of his plane. I did not know much about high speed stalls, but I did find a WWII instructional/educational video for pilots warning them about different types of stalls including high speed stalls. The entire video is interesting to watch and 17 minutes long. I found a good representation of what may have happend to F/O Edmund Decker at about the 13 minute mark. Here is a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaL1NcJs1jw One thing Audrey may consider doing while in Normandy and especially when near Paris, is to maybe take a slight detour and stop by the town of Boucanvillers. It would certainlly add to her expierence to maybe make contact with the town hall or some of the elders there who may remember a P-47 crash on June 8th 1944 and be able to point out the location of the crash. (It happens quite often) A decent smart phone with a free English / French translator app can be a great tool to have. I hope Audrey has a wonderful time John
Hello Pat That is his RCAF service number as it is the same as in the first information from Kris. It is a non Commissioned number as RCAF Officer numbers start with a J, and that ties in with his non commissioned Flight Officer rank when he transferred as if he had been an officer he would have transferred to the USAAF as an officer and taken the equivalent rank. For John - the Germans used to set up flak traps with a couple of trucks to lure in the fighters, but in this instance I think you are correct with the stall turn. As shown in the extract from the 125 Wing ORB for 8/8/44 – “...It was on this Recce that F/Sgt Downey was hit by flak and seen to crash land and his a/c burst into flames inside our lines. The flak came from a flak-trap at Q4289 which consisted of a stationary truck and a car, the guns being concealed in slit trenches nearby.” At approx. 18.02 F/Sgt M A Downey of 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron (Spitfire IX NH470) was hit by flak and crash landed near to Troarn - marked as "W" in 2TAF Volume 2 "Breakout to Bodenplatte July 1944 - January 1945" by Shores & Thomas, so he was lucky to survive. "Hit by flak F/Sgt M A Downey attempted a forced-landing near Troarn but his Spitfire turned on its back and burst into flames; fortunately Canadian troops were on hand to drag him clear, albeit seriously injured." but, sadly, not for F/O Decker. Great work with the ID. Regards Allan
Thanks Allan, Sorry, I missed the RCAF number in Kris's earlier briefing. Hopefully this is enough to bring us his RCAF service record. Having read the IDPF, I am a bit puzzled as to the location of the crash site. Therein, the location is described as being '3 km west of Maucomble and 12 Km SW of Neufchatelen (which I take to be Neufchatel en Bray). There is also a mention of him being buried in 'Poix' by civilians. The report author takes this location to be 'Poix de Somme' - which I take to be Poix de Picardie. This cemetery appears to have been used extensively by the Germans for the burial of Allied airmen. Hopefully I am tying all the "Poix" together correctly but in any case Maucomble is 60 kms WNW of Beauvais, while the MACR for F/O Decker puts the crash site '25 miles (32 Kms according to IGN) SSW of Beauvais! (at or near Boucanvillers according to the French site). This is worrying enough at 2:10am in the morning when I was reading the IDPF today - then I discovered another loss suffered by the 361st FS on the same day 'east of Montdidier' - 42 Kms NE of Beauvais! I am now sitting up straight despite the early hour The second pilot is Lt Edward Powell Lee Jr. (O-812449), whose loss is recorded in MACR #5590 (not to hand yet). ...mmm :dodgy: Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, While reviewing the IDPF I noticed the same locations as you did. Page 34 of the report also mentions St. Saens (under kind of capture) which is about the location described as 3 km west of Maucomble. I think this area is more likely the location of the crash site because of an immediate need to locate and destroy enemy vehicles and troops as they enter the combat area only two days after the invasion. Just conjecture on my part though. Kris, maybe Audrey should consider making visits to and checking with the towns of Saint Saens and Maucomble while there. John
Hello Pat and John At the end of the initial data from Kris she writes "He was buried 3 times, the last being the American Cemetery in Normandy.'" - so I am presuming 1. was the initial crash site (St. Saens perhaps), 2. moved to a concentration area as the battlefield was cleared (or this was the move to Poix), and then of course 3. finally to the US cemetery at Colleville. regards Allan
Guys, I cannot understand how the map overlay in F/O Decker's MACR overlay is so far away from the stated crash location in the IDPF. If it was out by maybe 5 miles or so then fair enough but this looks to me to be two completely different incidents being reported on. The real worry is the second 361st loss on the same day in the same general location. Allan, from reading the IDPF, admittedly in the wee hours of this morning, I am pretty sure the initial burial - of the pilot who came down 3 km west of Maucomble - was the one at 'Poix' cemetery. Civilians would not have been involved in later re-burials. The question in my mind is - was this pilot F/O Decker :huh: Does anyone have Lt. Lee's MACR (#5590)? If not, I'll see if its available on Fold3 tonight. Regards, Pat
Allan, I see him initially buried in Poix in grave 184. Then disinterred on 6-21-45 and reburied on 6-28-45 at St Andre as unknown in G-7-136. Then disinterred in 1948, identified, and reburied in Colleville. Pat, MACR 5590 is on fold3.com John