Hello Pat IIRC all the combat reports that I have read have been air-to-air, but they would have been interviewed by an I/O who would have kept on record, and forwarded on, any claims for ground targets, such as MET (motorised enemy transport), horse-drawn carts etc. etc. You will enjoy reading the information on Charlie Trainor and G D Robertson regards Allan
Hi All, I have been trawling the online archives of the Imperial War Museum trying to see how much other gun camera footage they hold for Squadron Leader Trainor and was surprised to see that no less than 12 combat films are held covering some of his sorties during the period June - September 1944. Rather than give the reader a long list of links on the IWM site, I created the table below showing the 12 finds ordered by 'Combat Film No.': <table width="875" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="1" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <tr bgcolor="#0000FF"> <td height="32" colspan="7"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFF66" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>Imperial War Museum Combat Film References for Squadron Leader Trainor (as per web site search) </strong></font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#0033FF"> <td width="113"><div align="center"><font color="#66CCFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Combat Film No.:</font> </div></td> <td width="115"> <p align="center"><font color="#66CCFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Date (1944): </font><font color="#66CCFF"><br /> </font></p></td> <td width="60"> <p align="center"><font color="#66CCFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Time:</font><font color="#66CCFF"><br /> </font></p></td> <td width="95"><div align="center"><font color="#66CCFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Squadron: </font></div></td> <td width="64"><div align="center"><font color="#66CCFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Aircraft:</font></div></td> <td width="169"><div align="center"><font color="#66CCFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Target:</font></div></td> <td width="181"><div align="center"><font color="#66CCFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Combat Report (TNA Ref):</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">3302</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">24th June </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">0600</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">411 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ground Targets </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">?</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#99FF00"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">3314</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">25th June </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">0830</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">411 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ground Targets </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">?</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">3775</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">28th June </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">1300</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">411 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">ME 109 </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">AIR/50/142</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">3776</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">28th June </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">2000</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">411 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">FW 190</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">AIR/50/142</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">3836</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">30th June </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">2130</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">411 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">ME 109 </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">AIR/50/142</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5067</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">17th July </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">1630</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">411 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ground Targets </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">?</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5403</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">27th July </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">0625</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">401 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">ME 109 </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">AIR/50/136</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">5458</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">27th July </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">1215</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">401 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ground Target, Vehicle </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">?</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">7814</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">14th August </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">1400</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">401 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ground Target, Vehicles </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">?</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">7824</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">14th August </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">1825</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">401 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ground Target, Vehicles </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">?</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">7835</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">14th August</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">0700</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">401 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ground Target </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">?</font></div></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF"> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">13139</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">18th September </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">1110</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">401 (RCAF) </font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">FW 190</font></div></td> <td bgcolor="#0080FF"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">?</font></div></td> </tr> </table> Note the three ground attack scenes from the 17th July which Ellen has acquired from the IWM come from Combat Film No. 5067 and the time noted thereon, 16:30, would appear to confirm that the scenes are from the 16:00 patrol rather that the later 20:25 one. In the right column of the above table I have included the Combat Report references from the UK National Archives database - apart from the missing Report for Combat Film No. 13139 (18th September), this seems to further indicate that only aerial victories resulted in the creation and filing of Combat Reports for RAF fighter squadrons. I have the four Combat Reports noted thereon if anyone would like copies. It would be interesting to view some of the other 6 'Ground Target' Combat Films to see if any further locations can be established - you never know; perhaps 411 had a favourite hunting ground which they frequently visited! I'll check if the IWM will let us have copies. Regards, Pat
I have been looking this thread over several times now and I am amazed at the depth it has reached. Mind you, this is real research and not the fluff a lot do at the "surface". I have been checking over what little I brought with me when I relocated to the Great White North from Ottawa,ON., and here is what I have that is relevant for this day. This comes from the AEAF Daily Intel which, as you guessed it, was submitted daily. One thing I have noted about these reports, that, although they contain a vast amount of information, sometimes details are omitted and only to be found down the line in addendums. A real pain the proverbial arse, but one interesting thing I have discovered, at least with RCAF ORBs, is they tended up round up the operational times. But, that is another story. Not much to add, but here is what was submitted for that day: Offensive Patrols: 48 Spitfires. 83 Group. CAEN-Argentan-Flers-Falaise-Trouville areas. M/T and A.F.V's attacked. Claims: M/T 6-0-11, A.F.V. 1-0-0. Fw.190's and Me. 109's were engaged by 411 and 602 Sqdns. Claims: 602 Sqdn - Me.109 1-0-1, 411 Sqdn - 1-0-0. 1 A/C 602 Sqdn is missing. 1st U.1537. Last D. 2037 hours. As you can see not a lot to go on, but I am still poking around my reference material. Stephen M. Fochuk
Hi Charles, 602's loss on the 17th was Flt. Lt. Alexander W. ('Mouse') Manson, (122156) RAFVR, killed when his aircraft was hit by flak SE of Argentan. Apparently he tried to force land but the Spitfire hit a hedge and exploded. Any information regarding either squadron would be of help. Thanks, Pat
I have a copy of S/L G.D. Robertson's Form F. Time up and down: 1555 - 1711 (no time of attack was indicated. Usually it was.) Place of Attack: North-east of Lisieux Height of e/a on First Sighting: 0 feet. Own height on First Sighting: 7,000 ft. General Report: I was leading 411 Squadron at 7,000 ft., flying west 6 miles north-east of Lisieux when I noticed an Me.109 flying at 0 feet due east directly beneath me. I turned starboard and dived down and opened fire about 600 yards closing to about 400 yards. At 400 yards I saw many cannon strikes on the tail surfaces and fuselage and the e/a pulled up sharply. His tail unit broke completely off and he caught fire and crashed into a woods 1 mile south of Tricqueville Aerodrome and blew up. The whole incident was witnessed by the remainder of the squadron. My cine camera was used and I was using the new gyro gun sight. Not sure how this will tie into what Trainor was doing, but heck, every little bit helps. Stephen
Thanks Stephen, We have his Combat Report - is that document one and the same as a 'Form F'? The reference to flying west when the Squadron was NE of Lisieux has me wondering if they were heading for home at this point. If so, it might follow that the patrol was flown in a clockwise direction around the Caen - Falaise - Lisieux triangle. Building this precarious theory further, if the Boissey location is the '3rd attack' on the gun camera footage, is it anyway safe to consider the first attack on the railway line and the second at the T junction were both somewhere on a rough line Caen - Falaise - Livarot, both thus having already occurred before they arrived in the Lisieux area? I also wonder what roads would have received attention within or close outside this area on an "armed recce", considering that Operation Goodwood was due to kick off the following day. Just some thoughts to keep the pot boiling... Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, Still getting used to this site - Yes to your query regarding the Form F. What I am finding a bit troubling here is the lack of any kind of map coordinate to the ground attack missions. They seem to show up here and there but their consistency in "the official" records leaves much to be desired. As a matter of fact, this is what is hampering my ability to further my research into the RCAF day fighters that served overseas. I suspect there's a log somewhere as to what was assigned to whom, which I dearly need to locate. As for which way 411 carried out their armed recce that day, again good question. You would think this would have been explained in the 541, but...no. Again, somewhere there must be a log that states the route taken this day. It is very possible the armed recce they carried out was in support of Goodwood, but with the whole front being so fluid, they could have been putting out fires on an hourly basis as called in by the army. I will dig around other material to see if I can get a sense of what the single engined fighters were doing around this time frame. To put things into perspective, the single engined fighters and fighter-bombers were let loose on armed recces after June 6th for the simple reason, the Luftwaffe did not show up. I am sure you are aware the Allies were expecting something like the air battles that took place over Dieppe a few years prior. Stephen
Pat, Here is an example, taken from the ORB of No.440 Squadron, RCAF for June 23rd, 1944: 0715 – 0910 440 - Carried out armed recce of 84G/1. Two Met. Seen at U.1141. Six x 500 lb., bombs were dropped and Met left in flames. 15-20 Met. Seen on road heading east into Vire. Each aircraft carried one long range tank and one bomb. (8 a/c) Why 411 Squadron's ORB is void of any grid reference to targets that were sighted or attacked is beyond me, though they are not the only squadron to omit this reference, which would have been noted by the I/O at the post mission debrief. The only thing that I can think of is, this information lies in the noted reference to the appendices in the right hand column of the ORB. Where they are now, or were even retained is a good question. If "we" had access to these references, finding the approximate spot(s) Trainor shot up his targets on July 17th would be so much easier. And then there is the issue of the ORB's not always being correct or captured the entire picture. That's another story. Stephen
Hi Stephen, Ellen has recently tried to locate the two Appendices A.259 and A.260 at TNA in Air 27/1804 but was unable to find any trace. The only help/suggestion the NA staff could offer was to try the Air Historical Branch, so that is where she is at the moment. Have you seen an example of an ORB Appendix? I would be interested to know what other information they normally contain beyond that which would have been noted in the ORB for a particular day. Its clear from S/Ldr Robertson's Combat Report that the Caen - Falaise - Lisieux triangle is too restrictive a search area, and in addition I think a close scrutiny of IGN post war cover of road junctions which have subsequently been altered by new layouts might also bring us closer to a location. In a way its unfortunate that the attack on the railway embankment was on a single rather that a double track as a lot of those single lines have been closed and turned into cycle lanes. The foliage in the attack footage on the left of the embankment has a distinctive kick or step out and then goes back in again. This, together with the perpendicular field lines running to the inside of the curve convinced me that this location should have been relatively easy to find. This has proved not to be the case however and despite downloading over one hundred IGN frames flown in 1947, I have so far failed to find it. Definition is adequate thereon for the most part, but the problem I have encountered is that when you zoom in on a suspect curve in Google Earth, almost invariably the foliage has grown up on both sides through lack of railway maintenance of the line. I am sure it makes for idyllic cycling but such is not the case from our perspective Regards, Pat
I have not, and I am not sure if copies of the appendices were included with the copies of the ORBs that came to Canada. Stephen
Pat, Air Operations on 17th July "All the Allied Air Forces operated during the day most of them against targets such as railway bridges and open lines, road traffic, fuel dumps, transport parks and similar tactical targets designed to assist the new offensive on both flanks. The chief exception was R.A.F. Bomber Command which operated only three small forces against flying bomb constructions. The main strength was being husbanded for a major attack to take place soon after dawn on 18th July." Page 41 "No.83 Group, reinforced by aircraft from No.84 Group, was ordered to carry out intensive and systematic armed recce over the area inside the line Beny Bocage-Domfront-Alencon-Dreux-Mantes Gassicourt-Quillebuef on 17th July. The above area represented a rough quadrilateral extending to a depth of 60 miles on a front of 100 miles with the river Seine as its eastern boundary. Particular attention had to be paid to the Seine crossing and their approaches. At the same time, the principal railway lines inside the area had to be cut in several places along the following routes: a) Mantes Gassicourt-Evreux-Conches-Bernay-Lisieux, b) Dreux-Laigle, c) Evreux-Montfort (single track). This task was carried out by about 400 Spitfires, Typhoons, and Mustangs, which amounted to about a half of the total effort for the day by 2nd T.A.F. Claims by pilots were much as usual. Traffic did not seem to be very heavy but squadrons claimed to have successfully attacked armoured fighting vehicles, railway rolling stock, cars and lorries on the roads and a variety of miscellaneous targets." Page 41 "But what distinguished 17 July from all other days was that the Commander-in-Chief of the Germany Army Group B happened to be travelling in a staff car that was attacked in the 2nd T.A.F. area on that day. Field Marshal Rommel had apparently been visiting the Command post of the Panzer Gruppe West between Livarot and Vimoutiers in the Argentan area and was returning by car along a road through the woods near St. Foy de Montgomery (Vimoutries) when a fighter aircraft attacked." Page 43 Pages 41 to 43, The Liberation of North-West Europe, Volume IV, The Break-Out and the Advance to the Lower Rhine, 12 June to 30 September, 1944. Nothing specific, just the meat for this query, but it provides a general overview of 2nd TAF's ops that day. Stephen
Many thanks Stephen, Montfort (which I take to be Montfort-sur-Risle) is only about 15 Kilometres from the Luftwaffe airstrip at Triqueville, where we know 411 were operating on the 17th July. Single track extends northwestwards from a Y junction just south the village up to Honfleur on the mouth of the Seine. From the same junction the southeasterly track to Evreux is a double line. This is new ground to me, so will need a few more downloads from the IGN 1947 archive. Regards, Pat
Greetings Gentlemen, AHB (RAF) states " annexes and appendices were transferred from the MOD to the National Archives in the early 1970s and as such, due to the time span, I am unable to confirm if these particular appendices were even attached to the ORB by the squadron in the first place". As we know, they are not at TNA, but Round 2 at our Canadian Archives was worth another try. Currently, I await the search results for A259/A260 from 411's ORB as conducted by an archivist at NA/Ottawa. Welcome Stephen and thank you for your efforts in shedding light on our fathers' wartime story. Ellen
Hello Ellen, I would be very surprised if the appendices ended up at LAC as DHH held back a lot of Air Force material when it should have been transferred to them. Mind you, I have spent a many hours/days at LAC but I feel as though I have only touched the tip of the iceberg. In any event, I am looking forward to LAC's response on this. Stephen
Thanks for the update Ellen. These two documents can surely only relate to what happened on the two patrols that day and hopefully are not just ground crew work related :s Waiting with bated breath... Regards, Pat
Ellen and Pat, I think I have figured out this appendices business in the squadron ORBs. I was looking at No. 412 Squadron's RCAF ORB today for the month of January 1944 and in the right hand column of the 540 entries are references to A/90 and so on. This number relates to the entries in the 541 as the numbers match. Stephen
Hi Stephen, The only Appendix I have seen to date is one I purchased from TNA for No. 165 Squadron covering the period June 1942 to April 1945. You can download it from the 'Green Room' Library by first going to: Researchers 'Green Room' Area / Resource Files / RAF Squadron Operations Record Books (ORBs) and then clicking on the link in the table as shown in the red box on the screenshot below: The large, 51.6MB PDF seems, at least in this case, to be a sort of squadron scrap book from what I can see, but this one may not be the norm. Anyway, have a look and see what you think. Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, Appendix 'A' appears to reference the 541, which is what I am finding. Anything after that would be 'B' and so forth; I have come across reference to appendix 'B' in one of the squadron ORBs to support this. I too was thinking along the lines the references to the appendices 'A' would contain further supporting documentation, but alas, I don't think this is the case. Somewhere I have a copy of how to fill out the squadron ORB's and reading what was expected would make you cry once you've come to the realization so much was left out. Stephen
Hi Stephen, I know what you mean regarding the incomplete ORBs - and that's in 1944 when things were going the right way. I recall checking the ORB Form 540 & 541 for No. 18 Squadron for the month of May 1940. Both documents had been filled out on return to England from France later that summer - all from memory! Needless to say, the Blenheim crash site I was looking for remains on the 'wanted' list And while I am ranting, those movie camera men who took several precious seconds of out-of-focus footage - all they had to do was check the blooming focus ring - that was their entire war :exclamation: Regards, Pat
Hi All, Thanks to Ellen's charming perseverance with the Imperial War Museum, we have been afforded the opportunity to examine additional stills from the RAF Camera Gun Footage Film 'CGA 5001~5100'. This is the film which holds the three attack scenes of Flight Lieutenant Charlie Trainor, the subject matter of this thread. Access to the film is granted under the same licensing terms and conditions by which the Trainor family acquired their copy from the IWM. These are as set out below: Acknowledgement that the tape/DVD is supplied to Whitebeam Battlefield Research Forum solely for domestic use. Whitebeam Battlefield Research Forum undertake not to make any commercial use of the tape/DVD and not to make any copies of it. Whitebeam Battlefield Research Forum accepts that the tape/DVD supplied will have the letters ‘IWM’ included in the picture throughout its duration. Furthermore, only still images (screenshots) will be posted on the Forum which pertain to the 16:30 patrol flown by 411 Squadron, RCAF on the afternoon of 17th July 1944. No footage will be shown from the film. This then confines our examination to 8 of the 69 attack scenes in the film. These are shown in the blue rows of my index table below: <iframe src="http://www.normandy.whitebeamimages.ie/rcaf/charlie_trainor/vts_01_1_gun_camera_footage_time_in_and_out_index.html" style="width: 96%; height: 400px" name="internal"></iframe> I am currently running a copy of the film through the excellent 'Video Cleaner' software, using a number of enhancement filters in various combinations in an attempt to lift detail in the very short and often blurry, fleeting scenes of these eight attack sequences. The software does work wonders though if you can apply the right combination of correction filters as can be seen in this 'before and after' scene from one of the attacks: That scene was good to start with compared to some of the others, so if there is anyone out there proficient in the use of this software, I would appreciate any advice on dealing with old black & white film, as most of the tutorials refer to cleaning VHS tapes - not the same problems are encountered with old film. Hopefully, we will be able to lift some additional detail from the other attacks made by the 411 pilots who's 16:30 patrol footage is included in the film. This might in turn help to locate the two missing locations from Charlie Trainor's three attack scenes. In closing, I just want to reiterate that its thanks to Ellen gaining the agreement of Matthew Lee of the Imperial War Museum, that we have been granted this unique access to a very rarely seen collection of gun camera footage pertaining to the Normandy Campaign. Thank you Ellen and Matthew! Regards, Pat