Hi All, This thread is being opened to facilitate us finding the locations of eleven frames from sortie US7GR/1729, flown on the 6th June, most likely by Lt. Colonel Norris Hartwell, Deputy Group Commander, 7th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, 8th USAAF. The frames in question have been acquired by Jan Foster from NARA and we are indebted to her for allowing us work with these heretofore unknown photographs. Please note; neither these frames, nor any others from the sortie, are currently in the NCAP database. Here is the first frame, 0006 from the sortie: A higher resolution version, being a copy of the original print photographed by a researcher at NARA and commissioned by Jan, is available in the Resource Files section of the 'Green Room Library' Members with 'Researcher' status can access this area and view these files. In searching for locations shown in these and any other frames from sortie US7GR/1729, it would be wise to check firstly the known locations of frames from sortie US7GR/1730, confirmed to have been flown by the new Group Commander, Lt. Colonel Clarence Shoop, also on D-Day morning. This sortie is held by NCAP here. While no records appear to exist confirming the pilot of sortie US7GR/1929 to be Lt. Colonel Hartwell, it is known that the two men flew together for much of sortie US7GR/1730, with Hartwell acting as wing man to Shoop. If you then hit frames marked as location unknown in sortie US7GR/1730 within the NCAP database, fear not, as the staff have not yet had a chance to update their records with the very fine work carried out by Hans in our dedicated US7GR/1730 thread here So, anyone able to find the location of frame 0006? Thanks, Pat
The flight summary for 1729 reads - Caen,/Carpiquet Airfield(FW), Oustreham, Beachhead area So in theory you are looking along those points. LTC Shoop's flight summary reads - Bayeux(FW), Caen/Carpiquet Airfield, Beachhead betw Montebourg & Trouville So similar flight pattern.
Hi Dale, Yes, it seems the only area that Lt. Colonel Hartwell covered on his own was the run up towards Cherbourg following the flak incident near Caen. I see quite a few near duplicates in Jan's haul here which match locations shot by Lt. Colonel Shoop in sortie 1730 - so close in fact that one could wonder if the prints were mislabelled. There is one distinguishing factor though in the oblique shots; Lt. Colonel Shoop's port side nose cone is all the one tone (ie the same colour), while the port side nose cone of the aircraft which flew sortie 1729 has a light toned rear half to the cone. I'll check the colours used by the different squadrons of the 7th PRG tonight, but would guess the tone might be yellow or blue (not red which would look very dark on B&W film). Don't have all my software tools to bring to bear just now, but it looks to me like the right side of frame 0006 shows some ties with Lt. Colonel Shoop's frame S_0071 which is Gold Beach to the west of Ver sur Mer. Anyone able to confirm? Regards, Pat
Pat, My researcher only sent a small sampling of what she indicated were a lot of sequential photographs, so there will be quite a few others for 1729 at NA in CP in all likelihood. Jan
Hi Jan, Pat, the frame shows the beaches between Vaux and Mont Fleury. P0002, P0003, P0004 from sortie US7 /1730 have captured the beach in front of Vaux which is on Jan's frame bottom left corner. Also same look and feel for the clouds visible in frame P0004 supports this. Here is the frame P0003 from US7 / 1730 as ref. I can also take a look to the other frames if they are posted somewhere.
Hi Jan, The National Collection of Aerial Photography (NCAP), based in Edinburgh, Scotland have signed a deal with NARA to take on the scanning of the latter's aerial reconnaissance photo collection. I presume any such scans will then be added to the NCAP database...with the accompanying fees for copies :s The more we get a look at the better before that process commences! If anyone reading intends to travel to NARA and has a few minutes to spare, we would be very grateful for any copies of reconnaissance photos in Normandy related files. If flash photography is allowed (please check before taking pictures), some form of diffuser over the flash unit will help to even out its output and prevent 'hot spots' on the resulting photo. Thanks guys and thank you Jan once again. Regards, Pat
Just missed you there Hans, Good spot on frame 0006...knew you would find it The other frames are downloadable via the Green Room Library here: Researchers 'Green Room' Area > Resource Files > Medium Resolution Frames - Sortie US7GR/1729 Regards, Pat
Jan, Pat, found the other ones in the forum. US7 / 1729: 0008 - same beaches as for frame 0006 between Vaux and Mt Fleury 0017 - Canal de Carentan 3022 - need to check further 0023 - La Madelaine UTAH (looking toward D67 exit) 0024 - La Madelaine UTAH (looking toward D67 exit) 0025 - Les Dunes UTAH 0026 - Les Dunes UTAH 3003 - need to check further best guess landing craft in front of Bernieres-sur-Mer 3020 - need to check further
Hi Jan, would it be possible to get an grip on all of those? This would be fantastic. I would volunteer for the location finding piece. Hans
Hi All, Great work Hans I'll do up finder charts based on your findings. Hi Jan, What is the fee charged by your researcher for work in NARA? If its reasonable, I would be willing to contract her to do some more copying of these reconnaissance photos. Thanks, Pat
Hi Jan, Pat, I could locate 3022 to show the beach west of Grandcamp Maisy. See the IGN Cover from 1947 at approximately the same scale. US7/1730 P0041 is an oblique shot covering this area also.
Hi Jan, Pat, new find. US7/1729 frame 3020 is east of Maisy. Here is the detailed view from frame 3008 from 10th (Photographic Reconnaissance) Group (USAAF) sortie PP/0187 from 25 April 1944. Source in NCAP Here is the full frame from NCAP According to the Atlantic Wall web site frame 3022 documents Widerstandsnest 82 and frame 3020 is a shot from Widerstandsnest 78. As a side US10 PP/0187 has just a few frame but these frames give an excellent overview over Maisy area, Point du Hoc and Pointe d’ Houlgate. For the Maisy area I can't see any traces of bombing. It must have happened in the next 4-5 weeks as US30/4045 is showing at end of May clearly damage inflicted by bombing raid. The 1st published photo from Jan's collection frame 3017 in post #4 from the "Let Us Pause to Remember" thread should be found eastwards from Maisy. More to follow.
Hi Jan, Pat, frame 3017 from post #4 from the "Let Us Pause to Remember" thread is located at Vierville-sur-Mer. US7/1730 frame 3007 shows almost the same location.
Hi Hans, Yes, I noticed the similarity as well…to such an extent one might wonder had the photos from the two sorties been mixed up? I sure would like to get a look at those low level views referred to in the account from ‘Eyes of the Eighth’. My guess would be that Lt. Colonel Hartwell took those ‘dicing’ frames as the new Group Commander, though a test pilot on the P-38 and on his way back to the States to work with Lockheed when he was diverted to take up command of the 7th PRG, had absolutely no experience of combat operations with the F-5 variant prior to flying sortie 1730 on D-Day morning! Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, I have reached out to the US AF Historical Support Division for information about the 7th Recon on D-Day. In their answer they copied me some pages from a report (I guess written after the war ended) about 67th and 7th Areal Recon, a chapter for 'camera repair', some pages from Keen's eyes of the 8th and finally what looks like a magazine article 'Allied Air Reconnaissance in World War2'. I can forward however 7MB. The extract from the 7th confirms that on D-Day Lt Col Hartwell and Lt Col Shoop were flying together for the 1st sortie. Both are reported to land at their base around 9:30AM. Not much more details were disclosed however a confirmation both flew together. With respect to the 'dicing' frames according to the chapter for 'camera repair' they were taken with a camera know as K-22 which had a focal length of 12". Vertical frame 3017 from US7/1729 sortie and vertical frame pair 3007 / 4008 from US7/1730 have all marked 24" as focal length at the bottom of the frame so this would exclude the 'dicing' camera with 12". I do not believe frame 3017 is mixed up with sortie US7/1730 because for US7/1730 the following frames are showing a close-by spot along the beach 3008 / 4009. I think both have just covered this important location for the landing at OMAHA with as many as possible frames. PS In your last comment you have mixed up Lt Col Shoop with Lt Col Hartwell as the test pilot, haven't you?
Hi Hans, I posted the relevant extract from 'Eyes of the Eighth' in post #12 of the 'Let Us Pause to Remember' thread, which confirms both men flew together as you say. However, I still cannot confirm that Hartwell is the pilot for sortie US7GR/1729...though almost certainly, he was. Apologies for my last comment above, as although there is no typo in it (in my mind ), it is badly written :blush: Here is a better worded effort: The term 'Dicing' refers to missions flown during a relatively short period during April and May, when D-Day planners requested oblique photos of coastal defences along the five invasion beaches. These missions were especially dangerous to fly as the low attitude required exposed the recon aircraft to a multitude of flak from all calibres. The high speed of the F-5s no doubt saved many pilots but losses were sustained nonetheless. I used the term more loosely when referring to the missing(?) photos mentioned in the extract. Hopefully, a full set of frames from sortie US7GR/1729 will be found, including the low level photos. Regards, Pat
It's $40 per hour, and she is efficient. Mary shoots a Nikon image of each record. It would probably take her less than 4 hours to shoot a photo of the reconn images with good resolution. Are you interested in 1729 or 1730 or both? I will have a few followup items for Mary to run down. I can ask her to pull the reconn photo file again and to let us know. If it's only a couple of hours, I'll take care of it and send you the Zip drive by regular mail. No worries. Today, Americans are celebrating 240 years of independence. It's hard to imagine how things might be today if the Allies had not been able to hold the beaches of Nornsndy.
Hi Jan, Sortie 1729 only, as the full set (as far as we know) of 439 frames from sortie 1730 are held by the National Collection of Aerial Photography (NCAP) in Edinburgh, Scotland. We have online access to their collection via a number of accounts here on the Forum. Let me please Jan; you have already supported us with a substantial donation and in addition, I would like to build a relationship with a trustworthy researcher at NARA. I don't have a ZIP drive, but I'll send you the login credentials to access my online ADrive 'cloud'. You can then upload any other documents which you might like to share with 'Researcher' members here. Many thanks Jan, Pat
Hi, guys- Hope your summers are going well. Sorry for the delay in reviewing andresponding to the interesting posts above. I have been working hard to wrap up work on my parents' estates. Regarding Naitonal Archives research, I have been working with Mary Roby, whose dad flew in a straffer bomber in the Pacific during WWII. Her background and kknowledge made her a great fit. Mary recently moved from Baltimore, near College Park, Maryland where the WWII military records are located, to Virginia. She has not responded yet to the email I copied Pat on a few weeks ago. It's unclear whether she will be continuing to do research at NA. As soon as I can resume research again, I will come up with options on other researchers located in the Baltimore area with knowledge of the WWII records at Naitonal Archives. Once we find a good match, it might be cost-effective to have the researcher handle our requests in one trip and allocate the costs proporitonately. (From what I've gathered, the commute to NA can eat up about 3 hours per visit.) Are you interested primarily in PRG records for the Battle of Normandy at NA, or Battle of Normandy records generally at NA? The NA works at a glacial pace in responding (after multiple promptings) to requests, and their charges for copies are pretty high. So, hiring an independent researcher is probably our best bet. I don't see NA going to the trouble of looking for the identifiers on the photographs to get 7 PRG sorties 1729 to 1730. If they would, I want to say it's $1.00 per copy for photographs. Jan
In my research at NA I did not find any significant records on the Photo Reconn groups or squadrons and almost no aerial photos of significance beyond those available in NARA. Maxwell AFB has the squadron and group records from WWII and it would be better to look there for mission information as I did with the 30th PRS. And yes the commute to NA can be gruesome some times, since the archives don't open up until 9AM you can start early and then stay to closing. The records take a couple of hours to retrieve from the archives but you can set up the next days records before you leave for the day to speed things up. I don't live near DC any more so I can't go to NA as easily as before.