LZ W Waco (Knotts Photo)

Discussion in 'Troop Carrier & Glider' started by Pat Curran, Apr 20, 2013.

  1. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,634
    17
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi All,

    I have been looking through the Brown Album of the Kenny I. Knotts Photograph Collection on the U.S. Army Heritage and Education Center site. The photo below is taken from the lower right of page 8:
    [​IMG]
    Regular readers may recall that we have already located this Waco crash site but this is a new view which I want to tie down in this post. First, for new readers, the ever faithful GE finder chart:
    [​IMG]
    Note the N13 road running up to the southern environs of Sainte Mere Eglise and the hamlets of Ecoqueneauville and Sebeville at centre right. The approximate location of the Waco wreck is circled in yellow one field to the west of the distinctive 'Keystone' field marked 'K' thereon. These fields are the heart of LZ 'W'. Below is a screenshot taken from footage in the International Historic Films DVD titled 'Drop Zone Normandy':
    [​IMG]
    The wreck site is circled in red and the view is southeast with the 'Keystone' field again marked 'K'. A better quality still photograph is shown below with the site zoomed from the red rectangle:
    [​IMG]
    Because of the early morning shadows present, the nose of the wrecked Waco can be only barely discerned at 'N'. The red and amber pair of arrows indicate a jeep 'bridge' across the hedgrerow. I have also marked an upturned wing from the wreckage 'W' and a flap 'F' which are all good ties when we come to the three stills from ground footage taken at the site; of which I have extracted three screenshots below:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    You will note the same serial number (4)3-3995_ on both the footage stills and the Kenny I. Knotts photo. The last digit might be '0' or '8'; I cannot be sure, but in any event I cannot get a good match in the 82nd glider tables, unless there is an error in this entry from the second serial of Mission Galveston:

    [​IMG]
    The coppiced trees marked 'T1 - T4' also match well. In addition, the 'H25' marking on the nose in the Knotts photo might imply a Headquarters glider as seen in the above table and the fact that it was intended that Galveston gliders would land at LZ 'W' is also a good match for the location in the tables stating the glider landed 'on LZ'. As it turned out, Galveston gliders were re-directed to LZ E because of enemy activity near LZ 'W' but it's probable that not all gliders in the mission acted upon this change in orders.

    In any event, I think the Knotts photo can be safely tied to this location.

    Comments and corrections welcomed and appreciated.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  2. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 25, 2012
    584
    9
    Male
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Pat,
    I agree with you.
    You can even see the trees you marked as T1, T2, and T4 in the overhead aerial photos.

    John
     
  3. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,634
    17
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi John,

    Yes, it looks like an excellent match; well above my personal 80% threshold. The only 'fly in the ointment' is the missing last digit of the serial number...on both sides :(

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  4. gliderman1

    gliderman1 Guest
    Guest

    Late to the show but the highlighted 82 report CG-4A 42-39950 is a non-existing serial number.
    The real number is and on the report should be 43-39950, a Ford built glider.

    C Day
     
  5. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,634
    17
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Thanks Charles and welcome to the Forum :D

    Do you have anything else on this glider?

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  6. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
    Researcher

    Nov 23, 2014
    224
    2
    Wiltshire, UK
    I'll add this style of chalk markings to my list of known Troop Carrier Group markings.

    I'm beginning to wonder if it was only the 82nd Airborne serials which had chalf markings as suspected Chicago and Keokuk gliders seem to be devoid of markings.
     
  7. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
    Researcher

    Apr 20, 2013
    360
    0
    Male
    Retired - although it doesn't feel like it
    Cornwall/UK
    Well done Pat, great research

    Regards

    Allan
     
  8. patelie

    patelie Active Member
    Researcher

    Gliders during Chicago and Keokuk were towed by 434th TCG. I suggest you to read the first paragraph of the SOP Glider operations..
    http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/data/434tcg_01.pdf

    If not marked.... how the troops find their assigned glider?
     
  9. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 25, 2012
    584
    9
    Male
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Hi Patrick,

    It is fair to say that they had a SOP for glider operations and I feel the glider markings were clearly needed. If they followed the SOP about markings, the guidelines stated markings were to be on the fuselage half way between the trailing edge of the wing and the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer.

    However, this didn't account for the invasion stripes that were to be added later.

    Changes had to be made, and likely on the spot changes at the time the invasion stripes were added.
    This may be why the fuselages are marked differently as markings were moved forward of the wing.
    It may also be why many markings are in white paint instead of chalk. A ground crew member who painted the invasion stripes may have re-located the markings themselves and it may be why we see some inconsistencies in placement, style, and whether they were made from chalk or paint . As an example, we have even seen some both marked with paint forward of the wings and chalk under the wing.
    To Neil's point, could some of the early missions have only used chalk, either as a time constraint, and/or if weather played a factor in washing them off on the flight over, or after landing.

    John
     
  10. marketc47

    marketc47 Active Member
    Researcher

    Feb 15, 2013
    132
    0
    101st gliders had chalk numbers as well. No doubt about that.
     

Share This Page