The BAR Horsa

Hi All,

Recently Phil Nordyke was kind enough to send me on all his photos of crashed Horsa gliders to see if we could bring forward Charles's 'Elmira Horsa Glider' thread. Two of the photographs are of the same crash site, with one of these showing a group of B/505 troopers posing in front of the wreck. Those readers with a copy of Michel de Trez's 'Sainte Mere Eglise - Photographs of D-Day' can see the same photographs on pages 172-173 with the group shot heavily cropped - unlike Phil's copy below:

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Also much clearer in Phil's group shot are the last two digits of the RAF serial number - ...27

With the presence of 82nd troopers in the photo, its reasonable to accept that the Horsa is from one of the two 82nd glider lifts - 'Elmira' or 'Hackensack'. I next had a look at the load manifests for these two glider missions and, not withstanding the fact that RAF serial numbers are not shown for all, the only Horsa with the digits '27' at the end is 'DP-627':

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This glider is part of Serial No. 33 out of Welford in the fourth and final echelon of Mission Elmira timed to arrive at LZ W at 23:05 on the evening of the 6th June.

Now look at the details highlighted in yellow:

• Marked as being 'destroyed'
• Marked as carrying 7 men of the 320th Field Artillery Battalion
• One KIA & one evacuated'
• One Jeep and one trailer (both marked as 'serviceable')
• Landing site 2.5 miles NW of LZ W

In my view, the two photographs do show a Horsa as being 'destroyed' but it's not a bundle of 'match sticks' as some Horsa crashes were described and most notable is the lack of damage to the tail section where a jeep and trailer would be stowed.

So as to location; "2.5 Miles NW' of LZ W would indicate the centre of LW/DZ 'O' or thereabouts. On looking through the available NCAP cover, my eye was drawn to a crash site showing on NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1057 flown on the 8th June and viewable on the NCAP site here - note you need a paid account to zoom these recon photos. Below is an extract showing the crash site in question:

Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk
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The location is indicated below on the GE screen shot - note Sainte Mere Eglise at lower right for reference:

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While I like this location a lot, there are problems, not the least being the lack of a high resolution version of NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1057. The Horsa at this location is resting with its tail at the 8 o'clock position and the cockpit at 2 o'clock. Extensive damage seems to have been inflicted on both wings but the port side seems to have an upward pointing fracture, while the remaining section of the starboard wing seems to have somewhat less damage, with a shorter portion missing.

With a bit of faith, I think there might be an indication of upward pointing wreckage on the port side wing in the two ground photos. This wreckage, if I am correct, is casting a small shadow just above the fuselage, above and to the right of the wheel in the group photo. In the non-group shot, you can just about make out what appears to be a missing portion of the starboard wing tip at extreme right.

I haven't quite figured out the mound which the guy closest to the wheel is sitting on. It seems to be very far out in the field and if so, does not make much sense from a farming point-of-view. Also note the starboard wing is partly covered by the canopy of a tree in the reconnaissance photo but this foliage appears missing in the ground shots, though this might just be due to a tall tree keeping the canopy out of shot above the angle-of-view.

Not at my required 80% certainty level but its not far off either.

BTW, I have titled this thread 'The BAR Horsa' from the GI holding the weapon second from right

Regards,

Pat

 

Hi All,

Just for the heck of it, I had a look at the IGN cover flown in 1947:

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The gap created by the crashed Horsa has not been repaired and I get the impression that the earthen embankment of the hedgerow is not very high, though that might be just my imagination trying to get things to fit.

What is clear though is that there appears to be some kind of object out aways from the hedgerow, arrowed red. I would wonder if it is the mound we see behind the B/505 troopers in the group shot

What do you guys think?

Regards,

Pat

 

Hi Charles,

The objects in your Bing Map extract are standard 4x4 round bales - see this photo as an example and are only in use since the mid 1970s or thereabouts. Whatever the mound is, it is solid and unmovable.

I agree that the one big missing piece of the jigsaw is a high res reconnaissance photo. I'll try asking the NCAP guys for a freebie in return for all the 'un-locatables' we found for them :dodgy:

Failing that, we'll have to wait until the credit card is back on an even keel in January

Regards,

Pat

 

Another thought has struck me...

Why were B/505ers at this crash site in the first place? - assuming of course I have the correct location!

If memory serves me correctly, Company B were not at La Fiere Bridge with the rest of 1st Battalion in the immediate aftermath of the drop because several plane loads were dropped way up north and north east of Sainte Mere Eglise.

The staggered crossroads to the north of the crash site would be on the natural migration route south west to the Bridge and some stragglers would have probably passed by here. As my son William has just pointed out, they would have been checking crashed gliders for supplies and ammo, having probably had some enemy contact in the initial stages of the migration to the Bridge.

The screenshot below shows a GE 'street view' from the junction looking south into the field where the cockpit (or what remained of it) would have been visible through the gateway. Note the round bale to the left at the far hedgerow - this is roughly where the crashed Horsa came to rest:

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This theory is going to add hugely to my embarrassment if the high resolution 'air' fails to back me on this one

Regards,

Pat

 

Hi Patrick,

You sent me the kml file back some time ago with three of the five in your list marked thereon:

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Can you match the report entries to all five below?

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Thanks Patrick,

Pat

 

Hi All,

Patrick, thanks; I hadn't thought to check the marker properties!

These three markers then represent three of the 52 Wacos from Mission 'Detroit' and are probably in their assigned LZ O landing field.

I am posting this photo below which is also one of Phil's and am wondering if it could be the front of the 'BAR Horsa':

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The angle of the starboard side wing is probably that of many gliders who are nose down on their landing fields so I need to be careful not to let my imagination run away. However, from looking at the low resolution version of NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1057, there seems to be room for the photographer to stand with his back to the hedgerow and take this shot.

I also note that the aerial photo which Charles found on the Yad Vashem Photo Archive site here as referenced in his post #3 in the 'Another Glider Aerial Photo' thread also shows the possible BAR Horsa site - I tried zooming it using the Java viewer but I don't think there is any more detail therein than what we see on the low resolution NCAP cover.

I have sent an email to NCAP asking if they could let us have a high resolution copy of NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1057 at a reduced license fee - if you don't ask...

Regards,

Pat

 

Hi All,

We now have the high resolution version of NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1058 flown on the 8th June. Below is a down-sized version with our AoI crash site inside the red rectangle:

Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk​

The red rectangle is zoomed to below:

Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk​

So, is this the glider which we have dubbed 'The BAR Horsa'?

Here are some observations which I have made:

• A - The starboard forward fuselage is intact; this rules out the forward section ground shot with the dead gliderman or crew member.
• B - I like this break in the starboard wing; it's a good match for the non-group ground shot showning the break at the aileron with just one white stripe inboard.
• C - Is this light tone being caused by reflected light from the wheel?
• D - This is the most worrisome feature - is there really this much foliage over the tail section in the ground photos?
• E - Another worry; this buckled section of the port side wing is pointing upwards if I am not mistaken; are we seeing enough of this in the ground photos?
• F - Is this a shadow caused by debris on top of the wing roots? If so, can it be accounted for by the broken foliage seen in the ground photos?

Taking all these points into consideration, on balance, I believe we have a match but point 'D' does worry me quite a bit. There is no indication in the ground shots of this amount of foliage overhang. It could of course be a very tall tree, well out of shot. Less worrisome, I also wonder if the extract below is showing sufficient upward damage to the port side wing (arrowed in yellow) to make a tie with the aerial?:

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The mound of earth on which the B/505 troopers poised for the ground shot seems to be one of perhaps three such features visible in a low resolution extract of NCAP_ACIU_US30_4065_2016 flown two days prior to 1058 on D-Day:

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Anyone any thoughts?

Thanks,

Pat

 

Hi Don,

Does the hatch open in or out in the Horsa? If out, then it may have collected foliage from the hedge as it passed through either the one it rests in or the one along the laneway.

Lancasters were far too valuable as the prime RAF 'heavies' to be used as glider tugs. More out-of-date bombers were used however such as the Short Stirling - see this page for a full list.

Regards,

Pat

 

Hi Don,

The drawing here does label it 'Gunners' Hatch' but this may be an early version before they realised how impractical it was to arm a glider. Available fighter cover was more than sufficient to protect the glider missions by June of 1944 in any event.

Here is a typical fighter group 'Oprep' for a glider protection mission (name not specified, but most likely 'Elmira'):

The 363rd FG had 50 Mustangs on this mission.

I digress; Don, what do you make of the other points A - E?

Regards,

Pat

 

Hi All,

Not a huge help, but I notice our possible 'BAR Horsa' shows on the B-26 Marauder footage on the British Pathe site here ('Us Bombers - Aerial Shots 1944' - BP Film ID: 1953.02). The still below shows our candidate circled yellow:

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We have a dedicated thread running here on this particular piece of footage, but the date of the raid remains elusive - assuming that it is all the same mission! I did manage to locate one of the targets today thanks to the distinctive 'question mark' shaped lake at the small crossroads town of Torigni sur Vire. Tracking down the squadron markings and the date on which this unfortunate town was hit might give us the date of the footage but only if the film is all from the one raid and the town was hit only once - both scenarios being unlikely!

Regards,

Pat

 

Well done John,

They also seem to be attacking an airfield, though again this may be a different mission. Any mention of this target in the records?

The 11th June would suit the amount of jeep tracks in the fields visible around the 'BAR Horsa' candidate location - not too much like you would expect to see later in the summer of 1944 and still quite a bit more than on D-Day. The top surface invasion stripes were removed in the 4th week of June because the German artillery spotters were using them to bring down fire onto the ALGs, so again their presence in the footage would indicate a date in the first three weeks of June.

You might also be interested in the Marauder footage showing a strike on the road bridge and railway viaduct at Clecy which I also located last night. The sequence is included between time marks 13:27 and 14:10 of this BP footage titled 'Invasion 1940-1944' (BP Film ID No. 2855.04).

The footage, which includes aircraft marked 'YU', is well known and used in a lot of D-Day documentaries. The scene where the stick of bombs explode down an escarpment, with the last bomb hitting the river at the bottom, has long been on my 'wanted list'. This bomb explodes just downstream (to the west of) the eastern bend here.

You can also see the church in the village which just about escapes being hit by a stick hitting in an adjoining orchard. A close miss on the railway viaduct is also visible.

Any chance you can track down a date for this raid?

Regards,

Pat

 

Hi John,

I would have little doubt that we now have all these Horsa wreck photos tied together thanks to the 'Down to Earth' photo which you posted

That same collection of ground photos though still needs definitive linkage to the aerial coverage, but in so far as this is just out of reach, I am quite confident that we have the correct location for the 'BAR Horsa'.

However, I would be less sure of your candidate for Waco 'A'...do the quoted coordinates refer to this field?

The account seems to indicate significant wing damage to the extent that I would expect to see one wing torn from its roots...or am I reading the account correctly?

IIRC, there are other Waco wrecks in worse shape in this area. I don't have access to my aerial collection just now, I seem to recall another glider in a hedgerow just across the field towards the Duboscq 'Sheepfold'.

Regards,

Pat