Glider Pilots and POW's pass a Horsa wreck

Discussion in 'Troop Carrier & Glider' started by Jonesy, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    This is a photograph from the collection of 76th Troop Carrier Squadron Glider Pilot, F/O Edward Short. Unknown Glider Pilots march German POW's towards Utah Beach. They're passing the wreck of a Horsa Glider that has landed on a road. Can we identify the location?

    78-Normandy-Whitebeam.jpg

    The 76th TCS war diary doesn't go into detail about the POW march towards Utah Beach but the 75th TCS diary has information which may be useful in plotting the course that they took:-

    "At 0900 on the 8th of June all the glider pilots were gathered together and given a short talk by General Ridgeway, he complimented the glider pilots for their behavior under fire. At noon the glider pilots were given the job of marching approximately 350 German prisoners to the beach. A Captain of the 437th T.C.Gp., the ranking glider pilot present, was placed in charge. The column of prisoners was formed and glider pilots took their positions as guards, scouts, etc. The route followed is as follows: from the CP south to road R16h2, west on this road to railroad track, south on railroad track to Chef-du-Pont, from Chef-du-Pont east to Ste. Marie-du-Mont, from Ste. Marie-du-Mont down road R12hd2 to the coast. Several miles from the beach the prisoners were taken to a Military Police Area where they were incarcerated. Approximately 100 new prisoners picked up here and taken to the beach. The beach was reached at approximately 1900."
     
  2. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi Neil,

    I think Pat did some work on a thread like this somewhere else, but I can't find it right now...

    I am pretty sure it is believed to be the D70 about 600 yards west of les Forges and the N13.
    I did a quick mark up to show you some of the comparisons as to why it is believed the area...
    78-Normandy-Whitebeam markup.jpg

    And I am sure you are familiar with this portion of the well known aerial...
    markup (2).jpg

    Maybe Pats post was related to ground troops, or Knotts, or a POW march... Someone will find it, but I wanted to get you an answer right away.

    John
     
  3. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    That's fairly convincing John.

    I'd still like to find out what and where was the CP? I assumed it was a house at Les Forges but if they were photographed on the D70 prior to the crossroads to Les Forges, what was their CP?
     
  4. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Guys,

    Here is the link John refers to; post #117 of the 'MSG John McCarthy's Road to Lecaudey Farm (Part II)' thread.

    The CP is the first 82nd CP in Normandy at La Couture Farm, about midway on the D15 between Sainte Mere Eglise and La Fiere Bridge here. I think the actual CP was in an adjoining orchard under canvas, while the farmhouse was used as the Aid Station.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  5. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi Neil,

    You may already know this, but the diary route directions you described are actually describing the road surface as seen in this key on a Carentan bigot map I have. 'R' being road width and 'H', 'D', and 'B' describing hedges, ditches, and banks on one or both sides of the road.
    i will post the key and a section of the map here to help explain.
    2017-11-27_9-18-05.jpg

    2017-11-27_9-16-05.jpg

    Here is an aerial of the CP here.
    30.4108.8June.1016.cp.zoom.jpg

    The book "Sainte-mere-Eglise, Photographs of D-Day" by Michel De Trez has some nice ground photos of the CP area, with German prisoners and wounded paratroopers.

    John
     
  6. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    That map clears things up brilliantly and explains the route they took. I have another photo of them entering St. Marie du Mont.

    I'm amazed that Elmira Glider Pilots travelled all the way up to the 82nd CP after landing around LZ W.
     
  7. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    If anyone is interested, the route is approx 11.5 miles in total.

    I'm tempted to walk it next June.
     
  8. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    Here's a photo of La Couture farm from the collection of F/O Edward Short.

    82nd-AB-CP-La-Couture-Farm.jpg
     
  9. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    A few others...

    adiSta1.jpg


    aidSta1_2.jpg
     
  10. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    Is it on the list of places to visit in June?
     
  11. marketc47

    marketc47 Active Member
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    Feb 15, 2013
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    Neil, about being Amazon the GPs of the Elmira mission ending up in 82nd CP area.
    What I think is that 435th gliders landed around Ste Mere Eglise, also West of town.
    The 77th TCS glider hit the wall of the hospital. Parks (78th) on West sie of town. FO Babuska (76th) ended up at the hospital pictured by Short.

    With the 436th gliders in the La Londe area, the 435th came in more to Ste Mere Eglise. That is what I think.
     
  12. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    Yeah, that makes sense.

    I still believe there should be a CP in the vicinity of LZ W.
     
  13. marketc47

    marketc47 Active Member
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    Feb 15, 2013
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    A CP might be to big word for what it was.
    No CP for glider pilots in Holland, but a bivvaouc area. Would expect a collecting point or something like that.
     
  14. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi Neil,
    I'm sure there was some sort of CP, or as said a bivouac area and aid station, at maybe a smaller Company level, at Les Forges. It is pretty evident in some photos. It would make sense to stop there and pick up more prisoners / wounded / glider pilots and continue on to the beach. Pat, Patrick, or Niels would know for sure.

    I'll let Sean, or someone weigh in on if we can visit the La Couture farm, because I would think it is privately owned. It would be a nice place to visit for sure, but I doubt I'm up for the 11.5 mile hike. That would involve a full day, and according to your diary it took the glider pilots 10 hours.

    John
     
  15. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    John,

    I'll be doing the route before you guys arrive as I'll be in Normandy from the 31st of May.

    There's plenty of interrogation reports from Glider Pilots who mention reaching their CP. Unfortunately I can't find details on what or where it was.
     
  16. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Hi Guys,

    This comes from page 105 of 'D-Day Gliders' by Philippe Esvelin:

    '...On the morning of the June 7, following orders received before leaving,Howard Parks and another pilot set off for 82nd Airborne CP. The zone was still controlled by the enemy, and they made their way cautiously. They spent the night of June 7 to 8 in a ditch and only reported to "Ferme de la Couture" on the morning of the 8th. There they gave an account of their arrival to an 82nd Airborne major. To his great surprise, Howard Parks knew the officer, Buddy McCollum, who had been trainer of the American football team in his home town.McCollum gave him instructions to guard some German prisoners gathered behind the farm. On Friday June 9, he escorted 300 of them on foot to Utah Beach.'

    There are three photos in Michel de Trez's book 'Sainte Mere Eglise: Photographs of D-Day - 6th June 1944' showing some of these prisoners at the farm.

    I understand visiting the farm is not encouraged by the owners, but I suspect that might be more to do with how they are approached!

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  17. patelie

    patelie Active Member
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    "At the Battalion CP they ordered me to go to the Regimental CP, which was about one-half mile due west of crossroads 33 at Les Forges..." Henry C. Hobbs - 439th TCG
     
  18. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    Do you think Capt. Henry Hobbs was referring to the 325th GIR when he mentioned Battalion CP?

    In F/O Ordway Manning 86th TCS, 437th TCG interrogation report, he mentions reaching the Blosville crossroads (358-936) where they came upon the 325th CP.
     
  19. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    Wiltshire, UK
    F/O Werner Birkelbach from the 84th TCS, 437th TCG wrote a very comprehensive interrogation report. He flew Mission Detroit Serial 28 and landed NW of La Fiere. He originally found the 507th PIR CP but was told move to the 82nd AB CP.

    He mentions that approximately 300 prisoners were to be marched towards the beach. This is the route as written by him:-

    "Leaving the CP marched south to highway, then west on highway to the railroad just below La Fiere, then south along railroad, to Chef du Pont. From Chef du Pont along highway east to Les Forges, then east to Ste Marie du Mont and northeast on highway to Herbert and from here to the beach. At Ste Marie du Mont the prisoners were turned over to the MP's."

    When he mentions Herbert, do you think he means Audouville la Hubert and down towards Utah Beach on Causeway No.3?
     
  20. Jpz4

    Jpz4 Active Member
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    Oct 24, 2012
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    #20 Jpz4, Nov 28, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
    Someone recently pointed out to me (and provided map evidence) that Hébert used to be northeast of Ste.Marie-du-Mont. It's Hameau Hubert now.
     

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