Hi All, I have had a email discussion with Mark Bando off forum regarding some photos of Joe Pistone and Ben Shaub who assaulted a battery that they believed was in route to their objective of Sainte Martin de Varreville. Mark theorizes that like the Holdy battery covered Exit 1 off Utah beach, and Brecourt Manor covered Exit 2, that there may have been a battery in a tree line that covered the Exit 3 (the D67) area up at Audoville. If there was a battery in that area, I would suspect it to be in the area between Turqueville and Audoville, and north of the D67 and south of Les Mezieres. After all, if the 122mm guns of the battery at Saint Martin de Varreville were already moved away, why were there artillery crews at Les Mezieres (objective XYZ). Could they have been manning a different battery? Does anybody have information on a possible battery in this location? John
Okay, I don't have access to my books and records right now so I'm going from memory here. Mark's famous 'Ghost Battery' is mentioned in several of his books and it is intriguing. I'm however still not sure this extra battery existed. German records seem to hold no indication of it. If I remember correctly there is no real photographic evidence of this battery as the photos usually linked to this mytstery location appear to be Holdy. The best alternative I can think of are some extra antitank guns to cover the causeways, which actaully is something that did happen.
Hi Niels, You are the best expert in this area, and I am glad you responded. This 'Ghost Battery' seems to have only been seen by Joe Pistone, Ben Shaub, and their small group. You may have done something like this already, but I did do some photo comparison of what Joe Pistone claims to be his photos of this location, but the photos seem to match other Holdy Battery photos. The lack of photos of this Exit 3 'Ghost Battery' are a concern, but we also have no photos of Brecourt Manor battery, and only a few of the Holdy battery. Niels, can I ask you if you have any more information on this area? Where did the guns from the Saint-Martin-de-Varreville battery move to? Were the artillery crews at Les Mezieres from this battery? If the guns were moved, why didn't the crews also move? Anything more on the anti-tank guns you mentioned? We all know that Dick Winters found a map at the Brecourt Manor location of German gun locations throughout the area. If only we knew what this map looked like. John
Hi Niels and all, I had been trying to find clues on a battery facing the 3rd exit and I found no details in the American accounts, so I tried some reading of the Foreign Military Studies as found on places like fold3.com and Sturmpanzer.com I did find the report MS # B-260 Cotentin Artillery some details that are very helpful. On page 2 of the report we know the battery at St. Martin de Varreville had been moved to a new firing location… At the bottom of page 5 we learn that a number of parachutists jump into the assault battery of Seventh Army … The map overlay indicates a B. 7 Armee location as being below the battery of 2nd battery 1261 at Azeville. We can also tell that the location is likely below Cibrantot, and above the D15 road. Although the overlay shows the old location for the 1st battery,we know from page 5 that 1 battery 1261 of St Martin de Varreville was nearby. We may not have a battery to fire on exit 3 as Mark Bando had suggested, but I suspect we have the battery he is looking for. Especially with the description of the paratroopers capturing the location. What do you guys think? John p.s. Strumpanzer.com has the full report in PDF, but no map overlays here: http://downloads.sturmpanzer.com/FMS/NARA_FMS_B260.pdf Fold3.com has the same report with map overlays: Page 43 WWII Foreign Military Studies, 1945-54 - Fold3
The battery from St.Btl.AOK 7 has been considered and ruled out by others more into German artillery. Having seen some of the evidence I have no reason to doubt them. The battery was probably closer to Azeville than to Cibrantot. It was almost certainly north of Cibrantot and present on US maps as well. The location just does not add up with the information on the 'ghost' battery. There are reports of unexplained guns in other sectors though. What doesn't help is the lack of accurate original captions for the photos. This has forced Mark to draw conclusions that made sense at the time, but do not correspond with German records. As a result we now have to conclude many question that were considered answered are in fact still open. As for the artillery troops at Mézières you referred to in the first post of this thread: according to German information the area held the CP of 14./919 and there also were about 40 construction troops and some ten men from (presumably) 1./1261. So far I've not seen any conclusive evidence there was any sort of formidable force around Mézières.
Niels, What do you make of the part on page 5 that mentions the paratroopers landing and capturing the battery? I guess the battery could be north of Cibrantot. I was thinking it was south of Cibrantot, only because I didn't think it made much sense to have another battery so close to Azeville. John
Being taken out by paratroopers is quite possible. Unfortunately the report from the battery commander is not specific about this. (He was captured at Azeville on 7 June). Other members state that it had suffered 85% losses from the initial attack and naval bombardement. Grouping batteries together makes sense for communication/coordination purposes, especially when units are new arrivals such as this battery.
John, It might be no harm to have a look at the aerial re-supply mission footage in the BP film 'Invasion: Aerial Shots - Paratroops 1944' (BP Film #1965.05)'. All the locations had been found on the old Battlebus Forum and AFAIR, the camera planes are turning eastward onto your AoI from time mark 01min19sec onward. Part of the old BB thread is re-created in our 'Resupply Mission Footage Locations' I'll see if I can find the rest of the screenshots and finder charts, then update that thread. Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, Thanks for the link to the aerial footage. I looked it over and didn't see much recognizable. Because the Foreign Military studies report B-260 was written by Generalmajor Triepel, I think it does have some credibility or accuracy to it. There was talk of some 101st men capturing some unknown hedgerow battery to the north in the early hours of June 6th, and Triepel's report independently confirmed that it did happen, so it is a matter of trying to find it. I am not so sure it was part of Azeville, and the map does have it separate on the map overlay. I would like to check the area around Cibrantot, but no NCAP aerials seem to cover the area. I wonder if there are some elders in Cibrantot who might recall a German Hedgerow battery in that area either north or south. Sean, any interest in a winter project in Cibrantot? John
Hi John, If you are looking that far north, IGN cover flown in 1947 shows three fields just 500 metres north east of the hamlet which appear to have received considerable attention from either air or ground bombardment: I am not sure if this location is marked on your map above as the roads are not drawn very accurately, but it makes for a good candidate per the narrative of the B-260 report. If this was a dummy battery and heavily cratered on D-Day morning, it might have been confused for a real position by paratroops landing in darkness. Regards, Pat
Hello John Certainly. I'm waiting until the weather clears a bit and the festive stuff has passed but will be heading up that way in the next few weeks. Not much work in January or February so I can possibly do this at the same time as preparing for the group visit in June. Cheers Sean
Hi Guys, Sean it would be great if you are able to meet anyone in Cibrantot that know of a batteries existence nearby. I think Pat's posting of the 1947 IGN aerial may be of some help too. Pat, Thank you for the aerial. You must of read the B-260 report, because page 3 does mention that a dummy battery was near and that it was badly damaged by bombs. Now I don't know about when "Whitsunday" is, but it does seam to be after the 1st battery was moved from its position at St Martin de Varreville as mentioned on page 2 of this same report. I certainly think that the 1947 IGN aerial has the correct area. While having no luck searching aerials by sorte, I did just have better luck searching by keyword. I found this interesting spot nearly between Pat's 1947 aerial and the Azeville Battery. It does not look natural to me at all, but more like a battery... What do you think? John
Whit Sunday = Pentecost. In 1944 that was on May 28th. Also, you should no forget that Triepel also mentions that battery positions had been prepared for s.Art.Abt.456 and 457. You can see some of those on his map as well. As for John's, location, it is a known location. It's on the intelligence map. Here's an excerpt I made for a different forum about this very topic.
Hi John, suprised you are not familiar with it. It's the Montebourg map of this series: Normandy BIGOT Defence Overprint Mapping GSGS 4347 1:25000
Niels, I'm familiar with the GSGS maps, In fact if you are looking for some high quality downloadable ones, try here: M865 France 1-25000 I just have not come across the ones marked up with the defenses on it other than the folded commercial one for St Pierre Du Mont (Omaha) Is your link the only place to get them you know of? John
Hi John, I cannot recall where on Fold3 I got this aerial of the St Marcouf/Crisbecq Battery: I am not sure if the six positions at lower left are dummies or part of the flak defences. The photo appears to show the trees with full canopies,so I assume the photo dates from May or early June. Don't have Azeville but I do have St Martin de Varreville if its of any use to you here. There are some Bigot Maps (with overlays) online at the British Library. Sheet No.31/18 NE is dated 20th May. Regards, Pat
Hello pat World War II War Diaries - Naval Operation Orders - Appendix 7 - Annexe E "Battery Photographs" - Page 3020
John, I happened to be browsing through 'Utah Beach - Sainte Mere Eglise - Sainte Marie du Mont' by Georges Bernage and Dominique Francois today and noticed what appears to be a marked up extract from a pre-invasion aerial on page 87 (photo #3). The markup refers to eight locations and the caption for the last reads: '...then the direction (8) of the 76.2 mm gun battery. (US Air Force).' The marker for position #8 is shown placed over this crossroads/field on the north side of the D913. I thought first that they were confusing the location with Brecourt Manor, but that too has its own caption referencing '...four 8.8 mm guns...' The caption is most likely an English translation from the original French, so there may be some loss in the literal meaning of the term '...then the direction of...' Regards, Pat