Hi All, Patricia Overman, NWC of The National World War II Glider Pilots Association has emailed me with a view to Forum helping identify some Normandy related glider photos. The first photo is one I have seen before, but as far I can recall, we were never able to progress finding its location of any details of its load or crew. The photo is reproduced below with the reverse notation also shown: It's one of the few glider photos I know of which shows the serial number (relatively) clearly - I make it to read '43-19885'. I cannot see any match in the 82nd Load Manifests for Normandy, but some of the listed serial numbers are difficult to read towards the bottom of the table therein. As far as I am aware, the 101st Load Manifests are not available - if indeed they exist. Also, note what appears to be a figure on the far side of the fuselage at the right of the photo. Can anyone confirm my take on the number and I am trying to work out if the starboard side wing is completely out of shot or is it folded at some obscure angle from the impact within the photo? Any comments or corrections welcomed and appreciated. Thanks, Pat
Hi Pat, I do remember plotting some Waco gliders that came down in apple orchards, but one that sticks out is on the map I created just north of Chateau Colombieres. It is barely visible in sorte US30/4066/ 2106 of June 6th. It also matches pretty well with a story in "D-Day With The Screaming Eagles", by George Koskimaki pg.266 The story is of a Waco glider carrying Lt Padrick and driver George Schulist of 81st AB AA (101st). I also don't think this serial number was on the 82nd Airborne manifest, which makes me think it was 101st. There are other possibilities for the photo though, including a Waco in an orchard just southeast of Boutteville, in an aerial photo you purchased on ebay.
Hi John, What do you make of the starboard wing?...is it collapsed down in place, swept back parallel to the fuselage or missing completely? Regards, Pat
Thanks Pat for posting this. We may be totally off base here but both Charlie Day and Leon Spencer thought this could possibly be a different view of the same glider that was used in the thread discussing Pratt's glider. Brigadier General Pratt's Waco Crash Site Are there two photographers in the photo? The one taking the photo and the man standing under and past the tail. If that is the case why two? If you lighten the photo, it looks to me, like he has his hand up to his face similar to taking a photo but then its not definitive. This angle in looking at both photos I could not see that either phot lends itself to making a good identification. I could not tell even from the foliage due to the angles or the perspective of each photo. If you zoom in it looks like just a few things may match but again the perspective of each photo does not help. I could argue that the brown line in the background is the body but that is really pushing it. I have not seen another photo of Pratt's and Murphy's glider to give any idea of the wing positions on their crashed glider. I know it was mentioned that the wing was out based on the aerial photo but I did not know if the aerial photo was decisively determined to be Pratt's glider. But then I do not necessarily know what to look for. I am not sure which comes first as the guide, the aerial or the ground photo. John Sdweda is correct that we do not know for sure when the photo was taken. The information on the back of the Pratt photo in the thread link I gave has June 7th. Here is the complete note on the back of that photo: "A member of an American Airborne Unit lies dead amongst the wreckage of his glider after crashing in an area, near Carentan, France. The jeep which the glider carried is still in the wreckage of the aircraft. 7 June 1944. "Signal corps Photo#ETO-HQ-44-5114 (Runyan) Released by BPR 17 June 1944. Orig Neg. Lot 8787" We know, if it is Pratt's glider, the date of the flight would not be June 7th. But the information in Montgomery's note may be referring to the mission date and Runyan may be referring to the actual date when the photo was taken. I have found that the signal corps did not always put complete information on the back of the photos or were consistent. If it was Gen Pratt they may not say (censorship may have been the reason). I maybe completely off target but I do thank you for your expertise. -Patricia
Hi Patricia, Firstly the second photo to which you refer, together with its reverse notation: This photo has been attributed to the Fighting Falcon location because of the similarity between it the the Van Gorder photo: The tie between the two is said to be the pine pole seen at middle right above - this is, in my view, an error, as the the 'pole' seen in the 'Casualty Photo' is clearly a Waco wing support strut. Also, as far as I am aware, the 101st did not wear the American flag on either shoulder, but the 82nd did have it on their right shoulder sleeve as seen in the 'Casualty Photo' above. As to whether the first photo; that of Waco #43-19885, is the same glider wreck as either the 'Casualty Photo' or the Fighting Falcon wreck, I believe it is an unrelated third glider. I agree with John; Waco #43-19885 is down in an orchard, not an open field where the Fighting Falcon lies. It also does not have the catastrophic impact damage seen in both the 'Casualty Photo' or the known Capt. Van Gorder photo of the 'Fighting Falcon' wreck site. For what its worth, I do think the hedgerow in the 'Casualty Photo' has a laneway or road on the far side - you can see the surface reflecting light in a gap at middle right in the photo. Unless another photo or more information comes to light with regard to the 'Casualty Photo', its going to be very difficult to find it's location - I would be more hopefully however of finding the 'Waco #43-19885' photo location. Regards, Pat