Gents, Has this footage been discussed on the forum? http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/damaged-gliders-of-the-101st-airborne-division-hedgerows-news-footage/168680952 It's the first time I've seen it. Unfortunately I couldn't see any chalk markings to try and determine which serial they are from? Neil.
Entirely new to me. The footage does contain stuff around SME as well though. The StuG appears to be one of those destroyed at SME.
Nice find Neil. I like to see the color images. Too bad chalk numbers are often not seen. Thanks, Charles
Hi Neil, Great find and all new to me also. I agree with Niels that there are a number of scenes shot from the N13 road. The last scene looks a lot like the field with the lone Waco with both wing tips touching the ground - I think the same glider appears burnt out in this new footage. Regards, Pat
20 seconds into the video, I am becoming more and more positive that the location is pond field where Horsa 'Edna' is located. Pat's research into this field matches how the Horsas and CG-4A's are lined up in the video. Thoughts?
Neil, I think you are correct ! I think the correct camera location would be in the farmers cut gap in the hedgerow directly above the glider tail marked H1. what we all know to be the "Edna" Horsa. Nice job Neil ! John
Hi Neil, Can't see the video from my work PC just now but if my memory of yesterday's viewing is correct, I think you have the location nailed. Well done. Pat
BTW, Didn't get a chance to check last night, but has anyone been able to confirm the last scene as been that of the lone Waco in the large field of anti-glider posts? The Waco has both wing tips touching the ground in the B&W footage. Thanks, Pat
This one? http://www.wwiivehicles.com/united-states/aircraft/glider/waco-cg-4a-hadrian-glider/waco-cg-4-hadrian-glider-in-rommel-asparagus-01.png
That's the one Neil, There is B&W footage from the same angle, so I presume the still is a print thereof. Always assumed its this field, but I have never been able to confirm this theory Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, I can't seem to get a match with the tree line behind the glider in the color film, with the Black and white photo. I don't know if it has to do with contrast, but has anybody had any luck? John
Just for the record: another photo of a Glider in similar position (although in a better state) https://books.google.com/books?id=9IUpDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA121&hl=nl&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q=waco&f=false (BTW this is from a new book Sean and I have contributed to)
Neil, Great find! I concur that the 0:15-0:31 segment from the Getty video is clearly from Pond Field. In addition to the four Horsas in the NW corner of Pond Field (H1-H4, in Pat’s photo analysis), another Horsa comes into view in the background at 0:24 in the video. This glider is resting on its starboard wing and the outer portion of the port wing is missing. As depicted in US7GR_1857_4052, this is a match to the single Horsa located to the SE of the main cluster of gliders in Pond Field. With regards to the likely serials for the Pond Field gliders in the video, the Waco is definitely from either the Chicago or Detroit serials. Based on my research, I believe that the Waco is most likely an “early” Chicago Mission glider. See my January 24th and 27th, 2013 posts from the Brigadier General Pratt Waco Crash Site thread here and here. In summary, the Waco in Pond Field is present in US30 4079_1073, which is from a photo mission flown at 15:00 on June 6th. As stated in my January 27, 2013 post: The presence of “W1” in Frame _1073 indicates that it can only be from a June 6th early morning mission (Chicago or Detroit). Based on the imagery currently on hand, and as Pat earlier stated, “W1” appears to be the only Waco in the vicinity of Pond Field. That makes it a good candidate to be the single Chicago Mission Waco placed in the NW corner of LZ E in the RwD and Koskimaki maps. It is also a good candidate to be the “early” glider that both Warren and Koskimaki say destroyed the glider landing aid “T”. However, a bit of uncertainty must remain based on the possibility that Detroit Mission gliders may have also landed in the area. Warren stated in his Airborne Operations in World War II, European Theater: “Three (Detroit Mission Wacos), which came down near Hiesville, may have followed aids set out on LZ E for CHICAGO”. Any thoughts on the possible location of the Horsa depicted at 0:00-0:12 in the Getty video? R/ Kevin
Hi Kevin & All, Kevin, apologies for the long delay in taking up your question, but something struck me the other day when looking at this early part of the film. I am pretty sure the two seconds of footage between 00:13 and 00:15, (between your Horsa and the Pond Field footage) is shot looking towards the northern hedgerow of the field directly south of Pratt Field. If I am correct, this would put the possible candidate for Horsa #4 of Mission Keokuk (your Dad's glider) just out of shot to the right as the camera pans right up this hedgerow. I could be wrong, but the scene immediately before this to which you refer, does not appear to show the same hedgerow, though it could still be the same field. Here is what I see; first a screenshot from the Getty footage: Note the line of what I take to be a debris field from a glider which has come crashing through the hedgerow. There is what I term a 'brown' object under the tree canopy, possibly part of the wing or fuselage, at the point where the debris erupts from the hedge. Also note the horseshoe shaped object resting on the ground in the foreground. I suspect this is a wooden 'rib' from a horsa fuselage. Now let's look at an extract from NCAP_ACIU_US7GR_1857_4052, flown on the 12th June showing the field in question: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk Now lets have a closer look at the area within the yellow box above: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk I see some good ties between ground and air above. OK the Horsa 'rib' is pointing in different directions and is not in exactly the same position in both views, but that could be easily explained by the simple fact of someone picking it up and throwing it back down again. Unfortunately, we do not have this hedgerow 'fingerprinted' but its certainly the correct type. The question is of course - where are the remains of the glider? This I cannot answer, but I suspect this field, like the adjoining Pratt Field to the north, has been tidied up as its at the southern end of LZ 'E'. Post war cover shows a significant gap in the northern hedgerow of the lane at this point as per this IGN frame flown in 1947: ...which in turn might explain the yellow arrow on this pre-invasion frame on page 33 of Philippe Esvelin's 'Forgotten Wings': It is my belief that the Flying Falcon did indeed impact this same hedgerow from the same northern face, but just a few hundred yards further to the east. The impact and debris which we see here is IMHO, made by a Horsa which has, in part at least, cut through both hedges of the laneway. Never one to shy from the chopping block, I am going to push the boat out further and say that I would now wonder if Mark Bando's photo from page 77 of '101st Airborne - The Screaming Eagles at Normandy'... ...might be the tail of this phantom Horsa. Note how the surface of the lane appears to bend to the right in Mark's photo. I once thought this might indicate a gateway, but now it looks a lot like the bend in the laneway as viewed looking westward. What do you guys thing of the whole scenario? Thanks, Pat
Bit thin on its own, but a possible further similarity can be found in the upper right corner. Note the shadows on the aerial photograph which indicate a low hedgerow or gap. As for the Bando photo, there is another color photo which has the same lane as the most likely location. The two photos could provide support to determine both their locations.
Hi Pat and Kevin, Pat I think this is a good possibility, and I think we might also consider that the Horsa of Kevin's interest from the 0:00 to 0:12 mark might very well be the Horsa in the southern field to the west. I noticed in the Bando photo that there is some sort of drainage ditch in which forward parts of the tail rest in, and it does match a similar ditch in a modern google maps view. I do think that there may have been a small gateway to the right of the Horsa tail that doesn't show up well in the aerials. That may be why there is significant worn ground around the tail end. There do seem to be two trees that have kind of a broad fan shape if we happen across any additional photos. also the spiral tree at the far right end of the getty color image at mark 0:13 might be useful too. I do like this possibility! Now getting to Kevin's earlier question on the 0:00 - 0:12 mark, I think it may be the Horsa to the west... The orientation of the Horsa and tail to the camera, and the odd way the tail leans and rests. We know that the cameraman was at the pond field shortly after these earlier images, and the theme of his camerawork was focused on gliders. John
Thanks Niels, The other colour photo of the wreckage might support the 'brown' object leaning down onto the field surface from the hedgerow. If I am not mistaken, there is part of the fuselage leaning down into a field below: But then again, what other way would it lean only downwards - so it could be another location entirely. :s Below is the only other known ground photo of this tail section, which comes from Patrick O'Donnell's site here. I would wonder if the tail is under tow in this photo...doesn't seem to be exactly the same spot :dodgy: Regards, Pat
Hi John, Just missed you there Yes, I have been trying to enhance the shadows in that scene in an attempt to pull extra detail. The tail section resting beside the body of the glider seems to be in two parts which does not match the aerail view. I'll do some more Photoshopping on it. Regards, Pat
Pat, John and Niels, Thanks for revisiting this thread and possibly providing some new information about my father’s glider. Several points: First of all, I agree that there is a very good probability that the 0:13-0:15 segment of the Getty video is the northern tree line of the field south of Pratt Field. Second, if one exists, it would be great to eventually locate a photo of Keokuk Chalk #4 in LZ E. That is why I asked the question last July about the glider in the 0:00-0:12 segment of the Getty video. Back in July, I didn’t feel too strongly about the likelihood of a match. However, that segment’s placement in the Getty video directly before the 0:13-0:15 segment that we now believe depicts the north edge of that southern field could point to a possible match (if there was no editing). Comparing the Horsa in the 0:00-0:12 segment with the Horsa in the 1857_4052 aerial, some things match and others don’t. - The main fuselage in both shots appears to be resting on its starboard wing. - In my father’s narrative, he indicated that his glider was relatively intact after landing. The glider in the Getty shot appears to have significant damage to the fuselage aft of the wing section. - The tail section has been blown in both shots, but as Pat mentioned in his post, its location relative to the main fuselage is different in the two shots. (Although, it could have been moved at some point.) - In _4052, the tail section appears to be resting on its port horizontal stabilizer. In the Getty shot, the tail section might appear to be resting on its port horizontal until you look at the notch for the missing rudder control surface in the vertical stabilizer. That notch in the trailing edge of the vertical stabilizer appears to be pointed at the nose of the glider. That is the opposite of what it should be. The tail section must be twisted and/or broken up in some manner. Pat, looking forward to your Photoshopping to provide additional details to resolve some of these discrepancies. Is there enough detail in the tree line behind the Horsa for you to do some tree line comparisons? Bottom line… I’m still undecided if it is a match. R/Kevin