Hi List, Brian has asked if we can reconstruct the work done on a story we had running last summer on the Battlebus forum. Regular readers may recall an inquiry from Ellen Peters regarding aerial coverage of a Horsa wreck north of Sainte Mere Eglise. Ellen was leading a group of veterans to the town last summer and requested a copy of NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1062 flown on the 8th June. A framed copy was to be presented to E/505 PIR veteran John Perozzi. Below are some extracts from Ellen's emails used with permission: Below is a low resolution copy of frame 1062 on which Ellen marked the Horsa wreck site: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.aerial.rcahms.gov.uk Here is a extract from the full resolution version showing the wreckage: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.aerial.rcahms.gov.uk Wishful thinking on my part perhaps, but is the jeep visible :huh: Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, If this is the glider, and it is facing 3 o'clock, doesnt the nose of the horsa look pretty intact for an explosion to toss the jeep on top of it? Would it be possible they tried to blow the tail off to recover the jeep and the Gammon grenade destroyed the tail and tossed the jeep on top? Jeeps come out the nose of a Waco, but out of the tail of a Horsa, so we might need some more of the story. Respectfully, John Szweda
Hi John, Yes, I agree; we are short on detail here. I am not sure what the object of the exercise was; presumably they wanted to get the jeep out and found the damage from the crash prevented the extrication of the vehicle. This story reminds me of the one regarding No. 3 Commando at Kelburn Castle - see my post on the Commando Veterans Association Forum here. Regards, Pat
Pat, Just based on this image is that what you see too? The tail of the Horsa blown away and the Nose intact? ...and I agree that there may be a jeep there. John
Thank you Pat for the post! There are a few published accounts of this story all differing just slightly. I am going to try to piece the narratives together to see what are common points between them. I believe its told in "Four Stars of Valor", "First Men In" and "Time Out for Combat". I havent been through "Sword of St. M" yet so it maybe in there as well. Ellen is a good source for this because she has probably heard the story directly from Otis many times. -Brian
Hi John & Brian, Yes, it looks to me like the rear of the Horsa has been completely demolished by Otis's blast. If the tail section had been already damaged in the landing to the extent we see here, I doubt if the jeep would have been worth extracting. The starboard side wing and cockpit area look relatively intact. I am not an expert, but to me it would seem unlikely that a Gammon grenade could have caused this amount of damage. It looks like Otis used some form of explosive charge. Does anyone recall an incident with a C-47 in England on D-Day night just before take off where a Gammon grenade exploded killing a number of troopers? IIRC, there is a photograph of the C-47 somewhere showing the aircraft with the airframe leaning towards the ground, obviously badly damaged, but intact. I overlaid an extract from NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1062 onto a GE screenshot to see where exactly the present day site of the Horsa would be: ...below is the same GE screenshot with the NCAP layer removed: The new road layout has resulted in the Horsa landing site now being under the side road, in part at least, on the eastern side of the motorway. Regards, Pat
Hi All, After a bit of reading up, I discovered the Gammon grenade accident occured at RAF Spanhoe in a C-47 from the 43rd TCS / 315th TCG carrying a stick of troopers from HQ1/505 PIR. Four troopers were killed outright and all but one were wounded. Still can't find the photograph of the plane though. Regards, Pat
I wonder if this is the same incident that Chet Harrington (A/505) told me about. Chet made all 4 combat jumps with the 82nd and said while waiting to taxi before Normandy, a C-47 was blown up with some type of explosive. He said it even damaged a C-47 next to it and although no troopers were injured on 2nd plane, they had to be redistributed to other sticks. 3 of them ended up in Chet's stick. Chet, a medic, was going to be the last man out the door and when the new troopers were added, he had to squeeze into a space near the pilot. He had to ride the whole way on the floor across the channel. I will have to go back through my notes and see if this was the same incident. -Brian
Hi Brian, Below is the map from Otis Sampson's "Time Out For Combat" you referred to in a recent email. It shows the route taken by Otis and a platoon from E/505 PIR led by Lt. Peterson sent to extract Lt. Turnbull and his D/505 PIR platoon from the famous holding action at Neuville au Plain on D-Day evening: It's a document that I had hoped to see for a long time now as the out of print book is almost impossible to source nowadays - many thanks At first glance it looks as if the hedgerows on either side of the N13 do not match very well when compared to Google Earth. However, I suspect that Otis drew the eastern side hedgerows having first rotated the map by 90° clockwise. If my theory is correct, the eastern side hedgerows will sit reasonably well as shown in the extracted and rotated portion below in version II: I have reproduced the nine points numbered above on the GE screenshot below: Comments and corrections welcomed and appreciated. Regards, Pat
Ok, that last post just crushed my world, haha. j/k Here is what I was looking at and focusing on which maybe why I was confused when I saw Otis' map. ***Please see attachment*** When touring with Paul W back in 2011 he had noted that Turnbull made his last dash for St. Mere Eglise starting where the yellow push pin is on the photo. I am guessing he either used one of the routes outlined in red or green to make it back to the town. The box in blue is where I thought Sampson's 60mm position would have been to cover Turnbull's retreat. This would probably explain why I couldnt get his drawing to match up. Which means I was focused on landmarks more and not so much the timelines. I am thinking now once they were warned the USS Nevada was going to open up they made from the town to the barn and then finished the last part of the day taking either. Now this all brings up another question...in most accounts, Sampson said he had met up with Turnbull and they walked back to St Mere Eglise together like "...on a leisurely sunday stroll" So which brings up the point is where did those two link up at? I just dont see Sampsons squad lugging mortar gear back across N13 through thick growth. Any thoughts? -Brian [hr] For the record Pat, I think you hit the nail on the head with your numeric marking of the map and the translation of Otis'. It makes sense and seems logical. The beauty of looking at this region is that there is not too much difference between recon photos and google earth images. There hasnt been alot of churn with the landscape as some areas see with such time elapse. -Brian
Hi Brian, When I first read the account of Turnbull's withdrawl, I assumed (wrongly) the USS Nevada's covering salvos landed along the N13 between Neuville au Plain and Sainte Mere Eglise. Later when we got a look at the ship's Log, it was clear that the covering salvos fell at the crossroads north of Neuville. I would therefore wonder if the N13 might be the most direct route back to Sainte Mere Eglise. The German forces would have been in no shape to respond in the immediate aftermath of the Nevada's fire support. The patchwork complexity of the hedgerows in the Cotentin Peninsula of Normandy at first seem to hinder identification and comparison of photographs to Google Earth. However, it is that very complexity which is the key; very few fields are exactly the same shape or size - imagine the difficulty one would encounter if every field was a rectangle with little or no hedgerows to guide on. I have found this problem over in the British and Canadian sectors in the open wheat fields around Caen. I find if you focus only on a small group of fields, say four at most, and run your eye over GE, the combined hedgerow lines will eventually pop out at you. It could be 4:30 in the morning though Regards, Pat
Regardless of that fire, I would expect them to regroup after capturing Neuville. The battle took long enough already so taking some time to clear Neuville, bring in the flanks and regroup, would make more sense than immediately attacking towards SME. Even pushing fresh troops through these troops that captured Neuville would take time. This is where the Nevada's fire may have had the biggest influence. Add the terrain to this and the threat of German fire gets smaller the closer you get to SME. So "...on a leisurely sunday stroll"? I could see it hapen like that. To finish, the part on the right of Otis' map may have been copied from the map in 'Night Drop'. That map has the same unusual perspective. EDIT:
Hi All, I agree with Pat and Niels on Turnbulls' retreat route and I never read anything that suggested any other route other than along the N13. The N13 was shortest and most familiar route available. Pat, thanks for posting the Sampson drawing and interpreting it as best you can. I agree with you and I always have issues with inaccurate drawings or maps, but your explaination make sense to me. Especially coupled with Niels locating S.L.A. Marshalls "Night Drop" version on page 32. I was almost going to comment earlier that it seems to me that in your re-orientated and numbered version of the Sampson drawing, that the N13 should pass between numbers 6 and 7. (I wonder why it wasnt drawn?) Also that the squad in the hedge just above the 6 is actually west of the N13 and also relates to the hedge location at point 3. Niels locating the "Night Drop" drawing seems to confirm this in my opinion. Respectfully, John Szweda
Niels & John, Thanks guys for posting the map from "Night Drop" - below is your version John received from you via email today. I have down sized it to fit the forum and marked it with what I think are the same points as Otis Sampson's map: I did notice the stray piece of hedgerow drawn by Otis on his map between points 6 and 7 - the 'island hedgerow' for want of a better term. I checked the 1944 version of Sheet 31/18 N.E. and found no hedgerow in that position. The reason for this 'island' I suspect is that it is a first attempt at drawing the first leg of hedgerow 6-7-8; note how it is almost a perfect copy of the first half of section 6-7. I could be wrong Regards, Pat
Pat, I like your term "island hedgerow" and it fits. In my opinion, I think that hedgerow is the one west of the N13 and is the same as marked 3. Notice the symbols drawn behind the hedgerows in Sampsons version also match the "comb" looking symbols on the Night Drop drawing. What puzzles me is why was the road not drawn? John
John, You mean why the road does not appear on the rotated eastern side? If so, I see no issue there; he has already put in the N13 when he drew the western side, so to my way of thinking, putting it in again in the same map window would be a duplication. Niels, I am pretty sure the 'island' forms part of his effort at drawing the eastern side hedgerows when he had the sheet of paper rotated, but like I say, it may not be so. Regards, Pat
Just a thought: We may have a been close to understanding the map completely, but just not close enough.... ----------- How about this: Otis' map is not one map, or not even intended to be one. (note the line between the left and right side of the map, they could have been different pages to begin with). Their overlap/connection might be a bit more complicated than just turning the right part of the map. The section on the right is a 'copy' of the SLA Marshall map. This shows only Turnbull's position and the German attacks. Copying this map makes sense because the map already existed. The left of Otis' map is focused on the E/505 platoon. This has the proper N orientation, but the E/505 line was behind (south of) Turnbull's men. (Meaning point 1 to 5 should be further south) If you look at the arrow running at the top of Otis' map, it is intended as a continuation of the German flanking manoeuvre of the Marshall map, even if it has a different perspective. The dotted part of the arrow might have been used to indicate this change of perspective. Suggestion: Again split up Otis' map in two pieces. Flip the right piece so it has the proper north orientation and place it to the upper right of the other section piece. Extrapolate the N13 trough point 6 and I think we get (close to) what the maps were intended to show together. I wouldn't worry about that. Most details from the SLA Marshall map are not copied. ----------- So... Am I completely wrong here? Might be, as I haven't thoroughly checked all available accounts again.
Guys, I am not sure I am following your concerns; is it that the rotated eastern portion is moved out of Otis's map window and therefore too far south? If so my apologies as I only done it that way to indicate the rotation. I thought the GE screenshot with the red numbers would tie it back together again. OK Niels, here is the requested amendment with the eastern portion rotated to true north and sitting on a new layer which has it's opacity dropped to 60% to allow the N13 to show through: I have positioned it so that point 6 on the eastern side is about midway between points 3 and 4 across the N13 as per the GE screenshot. This overlay also indicates the redundant 'island' hedgerow across the N13 as I expected it to. Let me know if you guys need more amendment. Regards, Pat