RE: 323rd Bombardment Group, June 6, 1944 Footage The target of the 391st BG, which follwed the 323rd into the target area, was "Caen Highway Bridge."
RE: 323rd Bombardment Group, June 6, 1944 Footage Hi Jan, Have look at this Critical Past footage which shows both attacks on the River Seine crossings and also the two strong points WN16 'Morris' and WN17 'Hillman' at Colleville-Montgomery. Below are some screenshots from when we first found the 'Morris'/'Hillman' location on the old 'Battlebus' forum: I wonder if this might not be the 'Caen RJ' target? Regards, Pat
RE: 323rd Bombardment Group, June 6, 1944 Footage Pat, Sorry for the confusion. My notes were elliptical, leaivng out the ligical progression. Let me try to clairfy. There is a master list of all 323rd combat missions, which appears to have been compiled by the 323rd BG. Given the invasion stripes on the aircraft over Clecy, the mission had to have been flown between June 6 and about September 1944. Neither "Clecy" nor "Viaduc de Clecy" are on that list during the relevant time period; the list includes a total of over 500 missions. Strking out there, I looked through the monthly combat mission lists included in the chapters, organized chronologically by month and year, in John Moench's detailed book on the 323rd. I did not see a mission to "Clecy" on any of those lists either. Your evidence that it was the 323rd over Clecy is compelling. For that reason, I have been trying to figure out whether the bombing of Clecy was labeled as something other than "Clecy Road Junction". Before posting my response expressing doubt that the 323rd targeted Clecy, I spent several hours looking up targets that (a) appeared on the 323rd combat mission list furing the relevant time period and (b) looked like possibilities based soley on the target description. I ruled out targets identified as CB or Coastal Batteriers, no balls, forests, fuel or ammunition dumps. Instead I focused on roads, highway juncitons and bridges (rail and highway). None of those seemed to be a match either, although my paulty knowledge of French villages and locations is definitely a big handicap. After going though these steps, the closest I have come to identifying the Clecy target among those on the list is the "Caen RJ" target of the 323rd and the "Caen Highway Bridge" target of the 391st BG. Box I, Flight 2 of the 323rd hit the "Caen Highway Bridge" according to the 9th AF report. What are the indicators that the "Caen RJ" target miht have been the target in the Clecy footage (with a bad misnomer for the target, which would be very inconsistent for the 323rd)? A. A gunner in the Box II lead aircraft describes going a little ways inland (Clecy is not too far inland) and flying down railroad tracks to the target. Railroad tracks (dwscribed in the period literature as the "Caen Line") run parallel to the Orne River near Clecy and intersect with the Viaduc de Clecy. B. Box I, FLight 2 is reported as hitting a highway bridge (a 323rd secondary target) , which was the primary target of the 391st. The bombs in the footage strike around the Viaduc, taking out the approach to a bridge. C. It's very difficult to read the handwritten debriefing notes, and from those notes it's hard to tell what Flight the Helton crew was in within Box I. It's not circled, as it usualy was. The Helton debriefing notes seemed to note that they got a direct hit on the area around the beginning of the bridge. Again, very difficult to read. D. The 9th AF report's description of the varying results of Box I in the target area are somewhat, but not entirely, consistent with wha tunfolds in the video. One Flight bombed an area a mile away from the tartet, and another hit around the beginning of a bridge at a secondary target. (The direction away from the target doesnot seems to match.) E. Both the 323rd and 391st had poor missions to the Caen RJ and Caen Highway Bridge on June 6. I read somewhere that the target wasn't where it was supposed to be. Normally, I'd be very certain that by "Caen area" they meant very near Caen and certainly not all the way to Clecy. But, nothing else seems to match among the listed missions. F. There were three boxes of 12. Each box contained three flights of four. You see what looks like four aircraft grouped together in the footage. Usually, two boxes of three flights of six aircraft comprised the 36 aircraft sent to a target. The smaller group suggests to me that the group was giving the flights greater liberty to target the aiming point. (This happened with bridge busting.) G. The altitude looks about right -2,000 to 3,000 feet. What points to the footage of Clecy not being what was listed as "Caen RJ"? A. "Caen RJ". The targeted areas are very specific elsewhere. B. There is no "Clecy" mission listed, unless I somehow missed it. C. I don't see any flak. One aircraft in Box I had Class A battle damage.Between Boxes II and III, seven aircraft had Class A battle damage, with Maj. Stach and his aircraft going down at the target. (Perhaps the Germans were caught dozing and Boxes II and III caught the brunt of the AA.) "A" is pretty hard to get around. So, after a lott of looking, I sent you the email indicating I did not think the footage was of the 323rd, but rather of another squadron. Hope this tracks my thinking better. Sorry for being elliptical, and thus, confusing. I don't doubt that the footage in question is an attack on Clecy after having seen your latest evidence. Jan
RE: 323rd Bombardment Group, June 6, 1944 Footage Two bits of additional information. In the Clecy footage, the aircraft appear to be dropping eight 500 # bombs each. It may very well be coincidence, but that is the ordinance used on the "Caen RJ" mission on June 6. At the end of the footage of the Clecy bombing, it appears that the aircraft are flying in three groups of four aircraft. That is consistent with the "Caen RJ" mission, as well as some others. It will be interesting to see if VT-K and VT-F were on the loading list for that mission. We will have to wait for Roy as my Mac won't read TTF file format. Pat, Regarding the stills you most recnetly posted, we need to look for a railroad line leading to the bomb release point to match footage with the "Caen RJ" mission. Will look at what you just sent carefully for train tracks. Jan
RE: 323rd Bombardment Group, June 6, 1944 Footage Hi Jan, Your mentioned... Now, this is interesting I found the MACR for Major Stach's crew on Fold3 just now and I'm in the middle of downloading the 32 page document. I noticed that the location is stated as 'Mesidon 22Km south-east of Caen'. This entry, I would suspect, refers to the major rail junction at Mezidon-Canon -see this Google Maps view. I have to take down the pages one at a time as JPG files and then I'll put them into a PDF for posting here. I don't suppose anyone has the MACR (#5527) already? Regards, Pat
RE: 323rd Bombardment Group, June 6, 1944 Footage Hi All, Here is the MACR for the Stach crew (41-31961) 455th BS / 323rd BG: <iframe seamless="seamless" src="https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://www.normandy.whitebeamimages.ie/usaaf/323rd_bg/macr/macr-5527_b-26_455th_bs_323rd_bg_stach_crew.pdf" width="100%" height="600px"></iframe> Source:Fold3.com With the straight railway track running for some 20Kms from Caen to the rail junction at Mezidon-Canon, and the sketch map of the crash site, I think we have a very good candidate at this location - though a 'road' junction is specified in one of the interrogation reports in the MACR. Anyone able to point to a road junction in this area? Regards, Pat
RE: 323rd Bombardment Group, June 6, 1944 Footage Pat, You are correct.. On June 10, 1944, the 323rd targeted the Railroad Bridge at Clecy. There is a photo in Ross Harlan's book, Strikes, on page 67 of the bombs impacting the area around the head of the Viaduc de Clecy. Ross also has the 323rd hitting Torigny sur Voire on June 12., which is NW of Clecy in the same route. On June 10, the 323rd also went to the Cerisy Forest. The photo of that raid on page 66 of Strikes matches up with the other footage in the video. Interestingly, there is a Strikes photo of the Folligny raid of June 7 just above the Cerisy Forest photo. So, there you have it. The footage of the Cerisy Forest and Clecy raids was shot on the same day. Now, to figure out why Clecy is listed as Conde su Noireau. Jan
RE: 323rd Bombardment Group, June 6, 1944 Footage Great, thanks Jan, Have you anything to link the 'Caen RJ' mission to 'Mesidon' (today known as Mezidon-Canon)? The target is confirmed as a road junction in the Stach MACR above. Thanks, Pat
RE: 323rd Bombardment Group, June 6, 1944 Footage Pat, Yes, I do. It will take me some time to draft and post it. I am certain you have nailed the "Caen RJ" target. Interestingly, my dad went on the Clecy mission and was flying in the lead aircraft for Box II, Flight 2. Box Ii, Flight 2 is the fight of six dropping eight 500 # bombs at the head of the Viaduc de Clecy and on the RR approach to the Viaduc de Clecy. He was flying with Lt. J.D. Helton in WT-A "Ole 33 Gal". It's that flight that is seen hitting the RR bridge in the footage. It's incredible to find such good footage of one of my dad's missions---never expected it. There was something about how the second flight targeted Clecy RR bridge that felt familiar. It's uncanny how our nagging gut feelings are often right. My dad and I are very much alike, determined the same way. I have quite a bit of information on both Clecy and "Caen RJ" to compile, draft and post. Thank you for your expertise and persistence is working through the footage and documentary record. This is a quite special and important documentary record for the members of the 323rd and their families. With appreciation, Jan
RE: 323rd Bombardment Group, June 6, 1944 Footage Hi Jan, Delighted to have been able to help with the footage and I look forward to your next post. Did you notice in the Stach crew's MACR that the first to bail out of the three survivors was an extra film guy? Its very unlikely he took the camera and/or exposed film with him, but what if he did! - it might now be in some private collection as all three survivors became PoWs. In any event, it looks like the 323rd BG were the darlings of the press corps Regards, Pat
RE: 323rd Bombardment Group, June 6, 1944 Footage Ha! Can't say I blame him. The guys reportedly talked Ernie Pyle out of going on a combat mission and respected him for not going on one. The 456th loading list for Clecy shows which aircraft had 9thAF photographers on board. If I remember correctly, there were three. It looks like one aircraft was lost to light flak. It's very hard to read, so I will type it and the 9th AF report up and post then before the rest of the post is ready. That way you will be able to see who's who at least in Box II. Not sure when Roy's dad started flying with the 323rd. It would be nice if he went to Clecy. Sadly, John Helton's only child passed away two years ago. I have photographs of Helton, John Guldemond, a copilot in one of the aircraft, that I will send to you. Dogs were an important part of the 323rd. John and my Dad owned Burna, one of Pfc. Gin Fizz's offspring. Ernie Ptle wrote about her. Ole 33 Gal, in which Helton and my dad flew, was the aircraft in which Dale Rush, bombardier, had been killed by a direct flak burst to the bombardier's compartment, over Dieppe on Nay 19 or 20. Dale was also one of Burma's owners and one of my dad's best friends. It must have been hard to sit in there. It's doubtful that the ground crews were able to completely remove all of Dale's blood. As more details unfold, the footage becomes more granular and personal. My dad was 22 on the Clecy mission. More to follow- Han
RE: 323rd Bomb Group June 10, 1944 Footage of Clecy and Cerisy Forest Missions Pat, You cracked the nut. Congratulations! As I was drafting the list of air crew, aircraft and formation assignments for Clecy, guess who showed up in Box II, Flight 1? Your old friends, Ticklish Percy and Morale Buster! Roy will be able to provide the positions of all aircraft. ( I just printed off a few pages from the Clecy file when I had the PC rental to go through the TTF files. Each pilot was debriefed following the mission, which was captured on a questionnaire. With about 70 missions flown by my dad to document, it wasn't practical to print everything.) It looks like the footage shows Box II, Flight 2 hitting the head of the bridge first, then Cerisy Forest, then Clecy Box II, Flights 1 and 3 after. Will have to study it further. The 9th AF reports helps identify what's unfolding. Jan
Hi Jan, I think we might need to be careful with the 'Caen RJ' location. Note on page 4 of the Stach MACR that the destination is Caen. The last known location of the crash is being described as Mezidon, France in the same section. According to Douglas Boyd in his book 'Normandy in the Time of Darkness' Caen was raided by a force of 72 Marauders at 1625hrs on D-Day. Perhaps the phrase 'Caen RJ' is just that - a road junction in Caen :idea: However, there were four Bombardment Groups in the US IXth Bomber Command's 98th Bomb Wing on D-Day, for a total of sixteen B-26 squadrons, so perhaps the Caen raid was not flown by the 323rd. On the other hand, if the Caen raid on the afternoon of D-Day was the work of the 323rd, it would mean that the approach was made from the south east, along the Mezidon-Canon / Caen railway as it appears that Major Stach's aircraft was lost 'near Mezidon' before the raid commenced, as bomb doors were being opened. Below is an extract of my pre-war French railway network map, which I often find helps to simplify matters when Google becomes too heavy on detail: I have numbered the major road junctions 1-8 in our area of interest for the 'Caen -RJ' location as they would have appeared in 1944. The green circled is my best guess at the crash site location as marked on the MACR sketch map (p14 therein) - though this might well be very wrong as there is no scale on the said sketch map. My thoughts for tonight Regards, Pat
Pat, Caen is bit of a spaghetti bowl of tracks and roads, making tricky. To further complicate matters, this was the 323rd's first mission in direct support of ground troops. As you know, coordination was poor at first between the two. Visibility was deteriorating throughout the day. If they broke through the clouds at 2,500 feet, they might have struggled to find the target. Caen would have been a "hot target." Lt. Col. Robert O. Barker of the 456th was in the Box I Lead. With him were the 323rd's ranking navigator and ranking bombardier, Paul Wolfendon. The 323rd was first over the target, so they probably had the best (least risky) Initial Point to Aiming Point. Sometimes the mission records included orders from the 9th AF that provided the weather forecast and each of the navigation turning points up to the Initial Point. ( Initial Point to Aiming Point is the 45 second or less bomb run ---the hotter the target, the shorter the run.) I might have printed those off for this mission due to its historical significance. Also, I ordered what look like flak report books of the 9th AF, which might help us rule out some approaches. Tomorrow or the next day, I will go back over my "Caen RJ" records with a fine toothed comb. I seem to recall that they ran into flak "in and out of the target area." Also, I seem to recall that Maj. Stach went down "over the target." How far he was able to fly the aircraft before bellying it in (wheels up landing) is definitely a variable, but it couldn't have been far. The Marauder could take a terrible beating and still make it back across the Channel on one engine. The crews, given the option, almost always preferred to stay with the aircraft for a belly landing. Maj. Stach probably ordered the rest of the crew to jump, which meant it was catastrophic - no hydraulics, trouble with both engines, major damage to the tail or wings. Aren't we lucky to be looking for the target from the comfort of our homes? The aircrews that had to go to Caen, knowing they'd have to go in "on the deck" to a hot target, must have been convinced they wouldn't survive the war. The expressions on the men's faces in the briefing photo range from tense to resigned. I'll find and send you the image with Getty Images watermark. Jan
Hi Jan, I think my theory is somewhat more solid that it was last night This is cut from the B26.com guestbook for 2002 - see page here: Unless you have two distinct and separate raids on Caen on D-Day by the 323rd, I think the 'Caen RJ' location is within the city itself and that this is the raid on which 41-31961 'YU-W' was lost. Why they would take such a circular route might be explained by the strafing opportunities afforded on the important road and rail links between Mezidon and Caen for the four fixed forward facing .50 machine guns and, as you described, by the tail gunners on the run in to the target. What effect such fire would have from their altitude is another matter. Anyway, that last paragraph is just speculation, but as I say, unless you have two 323rd raids on Caen for the 6th June, I am now pretty certain we have the location, time and route to target for your 'Caen RJ' raid. If correct, the exact aiming point within the city is alluded to by Douglas Boyd in 'Normandy in the Time of Darkness' - page 165 refers: I don't know that the number of aircraft or the tonnage of bombs are correct, but the book is written from the perspective of the civilian population on the ground, so I would take it that the bombs, wherever they were aimed, ended up hitting the town centre. Regards, Pat
Hi, Pat, Trevor may have gotten the route from the orders for the mission. I will run that down. Based on what " Tex" recalled and on Moench's assertion that the 323rd was trying to cut off the 12th SS Panzer Division, the rail line that is straight from Mezidon to Caen city center looks right at first blush. The 12th SS Panzer was SE of Caen at that time. Recall that "Tex"described flying STRAIGHT down RR tracks on the bomb run. From the I P to the AP, the formation flew an absolutely straight and level route. He also describes shooting into box cars on a sideling. A sideling is more likely near a marshaling yard, which points to near city center. Mezidon is about 20 miles from Caen. The loaded B-26 were probably flying at 200 miles per hour, so Mezidon would be about 6 minutes out from Caen by air. Will pick up the line of reasoning in a few hours. Have a meeting to attend. Jan
Hi Jan, Would not everything you say also work flying SE to NW along the track? There was a large goods yard about half way between Caen and Mezidon-Canon in 1944. Its now an industrial unit as seen in the triangle formed by the track, the D80 and the minor road 'Les Paitis' in this Google Maps view. The yard was still in operation in 1947 when the IGN cover below was flown: . Regards, Pat
Pat, There were two missions to Caen in the afternoon. The first was flown by the 323rd ---involved 36 A/C to a Road Junction in Caen. The second was flown by the 391st yo a Zhighway Bridge in Caen. "One box leader was shot down just before the target." The aircraft that was shot down by flak went down just Nort (?) of Mezidon." Box I, F1 "1300? Feet North" of MPI. box I, F2 "1 mike Southeast of the desired MPI , bombs of two A/C scoring direct hits on the primary target of the 391st, a highway bridge." Box I, F3 "concentrate 600 feet North of the desired MPI, a fairly well concentrated pattern hitting in streets and houses." Box II, F 1 "Due to violent evasive action, the camera did not record the attack. The bombardier reported fair results." Box II, F2 10,000 feet South...." Page cuts off there. Next page "Target: Town of Caen" "MPI: Center of Intersection" "Caen Road Junction C__1 and C__2". This page appears to provide the IP and the AP, however, it's extremely difficult to make anything out. I will scan and send the page to you. PRESS RELEASE "A gun position and communications system was bombed...by the force of nearly 100 Marauders..." "...We bombed from sl low that bricks and wood coming up from that rail junction that...the fields below we're full of parachutes of all colors looked like overgrown poppies." ..."reported seeing French farm women waving from the fields.""We were still low on the way back from the target. We could see French farm women waving tablecloths at us from the fields." It's not clear which bomb group was the source for the press quotes. I'm working on the notes from Helton's debriefing. He appears to have been discussing whether they were at the right Caen road. With respect to strafing- The bomb run was a very tense and focused effort by the bombardier and pilot. That would have been particularly tru at this target, which had a lot of AA gun power directed at the bombers. The only thing the officers focused on would have been the target. The turret gunner, waist gunner and tail gunner would have been focused on defending the aircraft. The Marauders were used to bombing from 12,000 feet. Prior to D-Day, there were two disasterous raids in Holland at low levels, which were not repeated because they lost just about every air crew. I doubt whether strafing was a factor in planning the route. More likely, it had to do with air traffic and AA positions. It is beginning to sound like they approached Caen initially headin inland to Mezidon where they turned and began the bomb run, heading up the straight rail line. (I need to go back and review everything before landing on this. ) [hr] My suspicions are point 2 on your old RR map, but I need to work through it. Trying to decipher the mission records is taxing -the quality renders them almost illegible. It took four hours to decipher what I just sent. [hr] The rail line you identified has to be it. The sidling is just past Mezidon. There are two present day highway bridges up from that , and both bridges are about one mile SE of housing subdivisions just north of the rail line. Just need to confirm these are as they were 70 years ago. [hr] This looks like the target area. It's just up from the sideline, has a highway bridge SE of a housing development. The bridge needs to be one mile from the target. Bombs hit in houses and streets northeast (up and back from the target). [hr] https://www.google.ie/maps/@49.1190677,-0.2101781,16z/data=!3m1!1e3 sorry, here's the spoy that looks possible.
Hi Jan, A lot can be done in Photoshop to rescue these documents. Have a look a what a little manipulation can achieve in the example page from the Stach MACR below: Before enhancement After enhancement I would be glad to help with this work if you need assistance. Regards, Pat
Hi, Par, That is good to know. I'm not sure how much photoshop could do with some of these documents. The print is almost blacked out in some areas and absent in others. I don't have a PC that can read the TTF files. I'll try to save some of the ones of interest to a file I can send to you. In the meantime, I'll scan and send the important pages that I printed off. I have s nagging feeling that we might be too far away from the Ccuty center. Problem is Mezidon is so far away from Caen. That makes for one heck of a long bomb run.