24th Lancers - British Army - 1940-44

Discussion in 'British & Commonwealth' started by Ramiles, Mar 5, 2015.

  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Active Member
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    I couldn't make out what it was. So was reticent to just guess ;-)

    I have (previously) tried to work out just how many tanks the 24th L lost, with this for example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/05/-sp-d-day-memories-from-the-front-line

    Having at one point the 24th L having "only 12 of their original tanks left", but with their having had replacements etc. and I don't think that the replacements were as likely to have all of the usual tactical markings. And I don't know but that might explain some of the very hard to identify tanks - i.e. that they were replacements. But of course that makes it hard to know whose replacements they were - unless there is some other info for context.

    BTW saw this recently... it's about 8.5mins long: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H1bL3-3IRE

    "Published on 10 Jun 2016
    British vehicle markings are under the microscope this time as we look at understanding late war British Armoured Division markings.

    This episode of Fog of War looks at the general vehicle marking rules but be aware that individual units and vehicles often broke the rules and some units retained old markings as they transferred between divisions, so use this as a general guide only. I used these rules to mark up the vehicles in my list from 11th Armoured Division.

    As well as outlining the use of divisional badges, bridge classification markings, arm-of-service flashes, war department numbers and allied stars this episode looks at the British 15mm decals available from several manufacturers including Battlefront, Dom's Decals and The Plastic Soldier Company."
     
  2. Ramiles

    Ramiles Active Member
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    There's a lot of pics here: http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueId=2352
    ...of the preserved reproduction of the SRY tank "Robin Hood"

    Albeit the markings that they have opted for there are "yellow diamonds".

    I wonder if this is in error - those being the colours of the 24th L? Or if it is just in line with the bit in:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H1bL3-3IRE

    Where it says it was the 2nd regiment of the brigade that had the yellow markings and things in the 8th Brigade simply changed after the 24th L were disbanded, with the SRY moving from the blue of the 3rd regiment in the 8th to being the yellow of the 2nd.

    However looking at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8th_Armoured_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)

    Order of Battle D-Day[edit]
    4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards (4/7 DG)
    24th Lancers (24L)
    Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry (SRY)

    Order of Battle 1944–1945[edit]
    4th/7th Dragoon Guards (4/7 DG)
    13th/18th Hussars (13/18 H)
    Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry (SRY)

    Suggests that the "13th/18th Hussars (13/18 H)" were brought in, as the 2nd (yellow) regiment of the 8th B, in the 24th L's place.
     
  3. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Thanks Rob,

    That's a very informative video by Flames of War; I have downloaded it to my PC for future reference.

    As with all film footage, I am very curious as to the locations in the BP Film #2000.01 and, as we are not certain (yet) of any unit identification therein, I guess this is as good a place as any to have a look to see if locations can be found.

    While the caption on the BP page might be incorrect in referencing the 4th Canadian Armoured Division, I would be of the opinion that the date of 26th June is probably correct. In terms of area to search, I was surprised to see just how small Operation Epsom ground was as indicated on the map below from page 336 of Chester Wilmot's 'The Struggle for Europe' (1952 Edition):
    [​IMG]
    Again, assuming the date of the footage as being correct at the 26th June, then it must have been shot on or to the north of the black broken line.

    Anyone know if work has already been done on this film before we go further?

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  4. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Here is the first scene:

    [​IMG]

    I have stitched a couple of stills together to get a single panorama of the road on which the bren gun carrier passes the camera position.

    Anyone any ideas as to location?

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  5. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    Pat

    I think I've seen efforts to locate these scenes before.... maybe one of the Heimdal books???

    I'll have a look later....

    Cheers

    Sean
     
  6. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    Hmmm... can't find anything.

    Something to keep in mind I think, there are/were, relatively few roads with evenly spaced trees in the area, the main road from Carpiquet to Fontenay le Pesnel was one. It would also have had sufficient traffic to justify painting the trees....

    Just my thoughts....

    Cheers

    Sean
     
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Active Member
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    I think the camera man was: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80003849

    Sgt. Ian James Grant: "British NCO served with 7/9th Royal Scots Regt in GB and France, 1940-1942; served as sergeant cameraman with Army Film and Photographic Unit attached to No 1 Special Service Bde Commandos and 11th Armoured Division in North West Europe, 1944-1945, including Normandy landings, 6/Jun/1944"

    Perhaps? Sadly his IWM oral history is not yet on line, though the extensive description is.

    There's a lot associated with the name, albeit again a lot that is not currently available on line: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?f%5B0%5D=makerString%3AGrant%2C%20Ian%20James&query=

    Though this one (again not currently online) caught my eye, due to its production date 1944-07-01: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060019497

    Full description: "I. Elements of the 3rd Royal Tank Regiment and the 8th Battalion the Rifle Brigade's 'G' Company are seen in position on the slopes of Hill 112. The RTR's Sherman and Firefly tanks remain hull down behind the crest of the hill. Artillery airbursts hang over Hill 112 above the tanks and half-tracks from the two 29th Armoured Brigade units and three-ton lorries from their supply echelons engaged in bringing up petrol, ammunition and food."

    Ps. and slightly earlier with production date 1944-06-28: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060019492

    "I. At the 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry's harbour near Cheux, a gunner in the machine gun 'pulpit' of an M5 halftrack blazes away with a Browning .50 calibre machine gun at a Luftwaffe fighter flying overhead. An ammunition carrier or truck hit by German mortar fire blazes away in the middle of a Sherman tank harbour. Ammunition stored inside a burning Churchill tank or AVRE begins to explode near a Stuart V tank hastily abandoned by its crew (?)"

    Don't know though (yet ;-) if there's IWM there for the 1944-06-30... for him too...
     
  8. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Wondering about this IWM photo:


    We have looked at it before in another thread, but now I am wondering if its the opposite end of the lane in the first scene? The power poles are on the correct side and the high roof perpendicular to the road might be a match for the one on the left in the footage. Its supposed to be in Fontenay-le-Pesnel, but I cannot find a match in 1944 aerial cover.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  9. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    Pat,

    If you mean the IWM photo the location of Fontenay le Pesnel is correct beyond doubt, les Houx on the road to Tilly. All buildings bar the barn behind the Panther now gone. There are a few photos showing the Panther and the Sherman on the other side of the road.

    There is decent coverage of Fontenay le Pesnel from 1946, including at least one PzIV wreck still visible, but unfortunately this particular stretch of road is just beyond the boundary of the area covered.:mad:

    Cheers

    Sean
     
  10. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Thanks Sean,

    If I am reading you correctly, the German 75mm A/T gun in IWM photo B 5939 would have been somewhere beside the house on the left here, with the wrecked houses in the small grass field on the right?

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  11. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    Spot on Pat.

    Here's a comparison I took 7 or 8 years ago....

    [​IMG]

    Just down the road and a bit beyond the Panther is a knocked out, burned out Sherman.

    [​IMG]

    and again a few years ago....

    [​IMG]

    Cheers

    Sean
     
  12. Jpz4

    Jpz4 Active Member
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    The building on the right of the road on Sean's last photo is visible on some period photos of the Sherman wreck. This appears to be the only remaining physical link with the situation as it was in 1944.

    In the pointless information category: the building next to the Panther actually served as the inspiration for a 1:35 diorama I worked on.
     
  13. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    In the equally pointless "I remember" category would that be Brothers in Arms? Wondered what happened with that one....
     
  14. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Hi All,

    Sean, is IWM B6042, reproduced on page 123 of the Battlezone Normandy book 'Operation Epsom' by Lloyd Clark showing the same two tank wrecks? I cannot link to it on the IWM site as it does not appear to be digitised.

    The photo is captioned in the book thus:
    If it is, then it might help with the first scene in BP #2000.01.

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  15. Sean

    Sean Active Member
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    Yes, Pat.
     
  16. Ramiles

    Ramiles Active Member
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    By the way in ref. to this post too: http://normandy.whitebeamimages.ie/forum/thread-346-post-6044.html#pid6044

    Wondering about this IWM photo:

    [Image: large_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photographs]
    THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN 1944. © IWM (B 5939)IWM Non Commercial Licence

    I have seen it remarked upon that you can (just) see the Fontenay Calvary in this one. Although it looks very similar to the trees. I'm not sure but as it is a landmark in that area I wonder if it can be seen in the background in many other 1944 pics too?

    A while ago I was looking for refs. to the Calvary and the fighting there etc. and found this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/61/a9004961.shtml

    "Just after 0500, a leading group of over forty men of the RSF found themselves pinned down at the outskirts of the village were there was a monument to Christ On The Cross, or Calvary. Here the SS rained mortar shells and sprayed the area with Spandau fire from the buildings and fields to the north and east. The RSF replied with rifles and bren guns. Such was the intensity of the German fire, that my father and his comrades could only just stick out their rifles and fire blindly in the general direction of the enemy, hoping for the best. While the base of the monument was pitted with bullet and shell holes, my father recalled that the figure at the top seemed immune to the gun fire and remained undamaged throughout the entire battle. It remains intact today peppered with numerous bullet holes at the base, echoing the struggle for the village on that day.

    The fanatical teenagers of the SS made many counter attacks on the Calvary as the mist finally began to clear. Several were repulsed after savage hand-to-hand fighting with grenades, sub-machine guns and bayonets. These attacks lasted throughout the afternoon with heavy casualties on both sides. Three tanks from the Sherwood Ranger Yeomanry came south along the Cristot road, termed “Hell’s Highway” (there were many “Hell’s Highways” in Normandy) in support of the RSF. However, one tank broke down while another was knocked out. The remaining tank had to transport the other tank crews back behind British lines. German Panther tanks from Panzer Lehr attacked from the west of the village, but were driven away by anti-tank fire from the Hallams.
    By mid afternoon, other units had made significant inroads into the western parts of Fontenay. Assisted by other Sherwood Ranger tanks, some of the RSF managed to get into the nearby buildings a few yards from the Calvary after viscous fighting to clear the SS out. By 2030, fighting around the Calvary ceased, but the struggle for the south of the village continued well into the night. Special tanks, AVRE’s with building demolition charges and Crocodile flame-throwers were employed to destroy the German strong-points with advanced British infantry finally digging in at the southern outskirts of the village towards Rauray. “When we saw the Jerry fortifications we couldn’t believe how we managed to drive them out”, an old Hallams veteran told me." etc.
     
  17. Ramiles

    Ramiles Active Member
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    There's another bit of contemporary 1944 film here: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060008120

    Albeit again in the same category of not currently being available to view online, but with fascinating description etc:

    49TH (WEST RIDING) DIVISION IN ACTION ON 30TH CORPS' FRONT PRIOR TO OPERATION EPSOM (PART 2) [Allocated Title]
    Full description: II. A Sherman tank squadron from the 8th Armoured Brigade rumbles along a dusty road leading to 49th Division's front between Tilly-sur-Seulles and Fontenay-le-Pesnel past a shot-down Royal Canadian Air Force Spitfire IX from No 412 'Falcon' Squadron.
    Full description: III. The camera surveys the desolation in Cristot, its shattered stone cottages and farm buildings, with gutted and smouldering interiors, and dead livestock, of which a chicken and a cow appear to be the only survivors. Also present are the wrecks of a German lorry and an SdKfz 250 halftrack armoured personnel carrier from the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend. A 1/4th King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry patrol on the lookout for snipers passes a farmhouse set ablaze by German artillery. At the village calvary, a chicken shows little interest in food offered by a KOYLI Sten gunner.

    For the: "A Sherman tank squadron from the 8th Armoured Brigade rumbles along a dusty road leading to 49th Division's front between Tilly-sur-Seulles and Fontenay-le-Pesnel past a shot-down Royal Canadian Air Force Spitfire IX from No 412 'Falcon' Squadron." bit I've seen a number of B&W (and colorised) still frames of what looks like it might be this, along with some attempts to suggest this might be a 24th Lancer tank.

    e.g. : https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2Faa%2Fef%2Fee%2Faaefeef5e322ae0348add243422a0a68.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F405112928956806112%2F&docid=eqaKTr14PYtxGM&tbnid=sLUm0PgLdugZhM%3A&vet=1&w=736&h=414&bih=685&biw=1280&q=24th%20Lancer%20tank%20passing%20by%20a%20spitfire&ved=0ahUKEwiGyK2a_tPSAhVKxVQKHUjEBO8QMwgeKAIwAg&iact=mrc&uact=8#h=414&imgrc=sLUm0PgLdugZhM:&vet=1&w=736
     
  18. Ramiles

    Ramiles Active Member
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    Battle of the Odon

    Has a few 24th Lancer refs. including, curiously re. IWM B6043
    24th Lancers? Relatively recently too - Pen and Sword, 30 Sept 2017 - History - 288 pages.

    Battle of the Odon
     

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