Case #1 - Who Strafed Rommel's Car?

Discussion in 'German' started by Pat Curran, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Guys,

    I found a s/h copy of "The Big Show" by French ace Pierre Clostermann the other day while scouring the shelves of my beloved Chapters Book Store. The book is Clostermann's war memoir and includes his time with No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron RAF. I was very interested to read his account of the Squadron's action on the 17th July, even though he himself had recently been 'recalled from ops' due to battle fatigue.

    Page 193 refers:

    Below is a table showing an extract from the 602 Squadron ORB Form 541 for the 15:40 hours patrol on the 17th July:<table width="819" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="1" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <tr bgcolor="#0000FF">
    <td height="32" colspan="7"><div align="center"><font color="#FFFF66" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>No. 602 Squadron ORB - Extract Form 541 (Record of Events) - 17th July 1944 </strong></font></div></td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#0033FF">
    <td width="90" rowspan="2"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Aircraft Type and Number </font></div></td>
    <td width="182" rowspan="2"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Crew</font></div></td>
    <td width="59" rowspan="2"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Duty</font>

    </div></td>
    <td colspan="2"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Time</font> </div>
    </td>

    <td width="265" rowspan="2"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Details of Sortie or Flight </font></div></td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#0033FF">
    <td width="75"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Up</font> </div></td>
    <td width="81" bgcolor="#0033FF"><div align="center"><font color="#99FF00" size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Down</font>
    </div> </td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF">
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spitfire IX,B </font></td>
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">&nbsp;</font></td>
    <td>&nbsp;</td>
    <td>&nbsp;</td>
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">&nbsp;</font></td>
    <td>&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF">
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MK 775 </font></td>
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">S/LDR J.J. Le Roux DFC<br /> & 2 Bars </font></td>
    <td>&nbsp;</td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">15:40</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">16:45</font></div></td>

    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Armed Recce - 4 a/c carried bombs </font></div></td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF">
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MH 508 </font></td>
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">P/O J.S. McConachie </font></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pilot</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td>&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF">
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MI 586 </font></td>
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">ASP Remlinger J.J. (FF) </font></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td>&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF">
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MK 614 </font></td>
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">CPT T. Jonssen (NOR) DFC </font></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">16:50</font></div></td>
    <td>&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF">
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MK 718 </font></td>
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sgt Duke E.E. </font></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td>&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#66CCFF">
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MI 584 </font></td>
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">F/O G.L. Robinson </font></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">16:55</font></div></td>
    <td>&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#99FF00">
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MK 841 </font></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">F/O M.D. Morgan (N.Z.) </font></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>

    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF">&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#99FF00">
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">&nbsp;</font></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">W/O Fox F.J. </font></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">16:50</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF">&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#99FF00">
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MK 232 </font></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">F/LT A.R. Stewart </font></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">16:45</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF">&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#99FF00">
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MK 255 </font></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">F/SGT Francis M.V. </font></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">16:50</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF">&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#999999">
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MK 350 </font></td>
    <td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">F/LT A.W. Manson </font></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Failed to Return </font></div></td>
    <td><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">From this duty, F/LT A.W. Manson failed to return </font></div></td>
    </tr>
    <tr bgcolor="#99FF00">
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MJ 605 </font></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sgt Downey M. </font></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF"><div align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">16:55</font></div></td>
    <td bgcolor="#66CCFF">&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    </table>

    More follows but in the meantime, does anyone know where F/Lt 'Mouse' Manson's aircraft crashed?

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  2. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi All,

    To continue with ASP Clostermann's account of the 17th July 15:40 hours patrol (with my comments in red):

    Plenty to mull over there in that lot and more to come...

    BTW, does anyone know what Free French Air Force rank is indicated by the letters 'ASP'

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  3. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    ASP Clostermann's account continues...

    Below is an extract from 602's Form 540 for the 17th July:

    [​IMG]

    I'll finish ASP Clostermann's account of the action in the next post - BTW, note the use of the full word 'Aspirant' in place of the abbreviation 'ASP' in the Form 540 extract. Wikipedia describes the rank in the French Military today as:

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  4. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
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    To Finish ASP Clostermann's account:

    One more little extract coming...

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  5. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    The last paragraph:

    So, that's Aspirant Pierre Clostermann's account. The think that strikes me most about it is just how detailed the account is - and not just from an aerial perspective. Where did he get the details such as:

    Did this information come from an RAF report? If so, where is this document now?

    If this account is accurate, it seems to imply that F/O B.J. Oliver was the pilot who first strafed the car, yet the Form 541 does not have him listed as being on the 15:40 hours patrol, but the Form 540 account has him credited with destroying "a truck and a staff car with his bomb and also scored a staff car - flamer and two smokers with his cannons and mags near Falaise"

    F/O B.J. Oliver is listed on the Form 541 as being up on the later 19:30 hours patrol, where the comments column credits him with one FW 190 destroyed. I am inclined to think the Form 541 is the erroneous document and therefore he did indeed fly on the 15:40 hours patrol which Clostermann claims is the one which resulted in the attack on the car.

    So what have we learned to advance matters here? Well, I certainly would like to see either or both of these:
    • An official RAF report into the attack on Rommel's car (if one exists today)
    • F/Lt 'Mouse' Manson's crash site
    A quick search on the NA site using the keyword 'Rommel' pulls up 22 records but none appear to be anything like an RAF report on the strafing incident.

    Anyone any ideas?

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  6. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi Pat,

    Sorry I don't have any ideas, but this is really interesting reading the accounts! :)

    John
     
  7. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi John,

    If we could tie F/Lt Manson's crash site to the known location of the attack, it would strengthen 602's claim to fame. It is fascinating to think that the survivors on the road saw the Spitfire gliding down to a forced landing. If this is correct, then the crash site must be within a few miles of where the attack on the car took place.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  8. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Apr 20, 2013
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    Hello Pat

    You must remember that whilst a good read "The Big Show" is not 100% factual - we have the original edition from way way back, and then the 2004 update, as it was the first book published that mentioned 125 Airfield/Wing, so Dad, and then I, found it of great personal interest. However, if you were to read the Munsterland incident, and then compare it with what 125 Airfield were doing that day they were not even attacking the same country!! 2TAF Vol 2 "Breakout to Bodenplatte" July 1944 - January 1945, by Chris Shores and Chris Thomas, has a whole page dedicated to "Who got Rommel", and F/Lt D A W Manson was flying Spitfire IX MK350, and hit by flak, crash landed SE Argentan and was killed.

    I cannot scan the page without damage to the book, but I will try to photograph it and if it works send it to you for editing.

    Regards

    Allan
     
  9. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Allan,

    Thanks for your thoughts and and additional information on this fascinating story.

    Is the exact crash site of F/Lt Manson's Spitfire known? If it is indeed SE of Argentan, then the attack on the car took place well over fifteen miles from where the aircraft crashed. I note 602's Form 540 is quite vague as to incident locations, using the word 'near' a lot but I presume it's the best the pilots could do in debriefing, having to recount multiple incidents from the patrol.

    Looking at the way the 540 is typed up, is it possible to differentiate if all twelve aircraft operated on the 15:40 hours patrol together or did they break up into flights or sections? For example, would each of the four Spitfires carrying the bombs be teamed up with two others to form a section? If they did operate in sections, then is it correct to say that only three aircraft would have witnessed any one of the recorded incidents on this particular patrol?

    I am also wondering about the way this paragraph in the 'After the Battle' article is put together:

    This seems to imply that there is somewhere a separate account submitted by Squadron Leader Le Roux. What exactly went into producing the two forms of a squadron ORB? I assumed that both forms were filled out by or on behalf of the Intelligence Officer based on his debriefing the pilots on their return from a sortie - but was there other paperwork submitted by a patrol leader?

    Thanks Allan,

    Pat
     
  10. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Apr 20, 2013
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    Hello Pat

    Some combat reports exist at the NA, but not all of them IIRC as that would probably run in to thousands, but obviously if Bruce Robertson (not Robinson - I have this book, so ATB got it wrong!) could write about his combat reports they existed when the book was written in 1960. Here, briefly, is what it states about the incident:

    "Directing the German defence was the famous and respected general, Erwin Rommel. On the evening of July 17th, as he neared the hamlet of Ste. Foy de Montgomerie in his staff car, Spitfires of No. 602 Squadron flew over the road. Twelve had set off on an armed reconnaissance to the south of the lines, four of them carrying bombs" with nothing about how they formed up for the mission, then it describes attacks on Me109's "After a 200-yard range shot at another, which eluded him, he went down to find targets on the ground as the other Me109's had disappeared. Following a road he fired at a motor truck, a motor-cyclist and a staff car before exhausting his ammunition. The last target was evidently Rommel's car, from a linking up of the known facts. The car overturned and Rommel, whose skull was fractured, was removed from the Field." But, obviously, this report is not conclusive, with no source documents being stated in the account.

    Pilots would be interviewed by an IO on return from an operation, but as to who compiled those individual notes in to an actual Form 540 layout for submission to the diarist I have no idea, nor what would have happened to the original raw data.

    All probably long gone by now, unfortunately, and with S/Ldr J J Le Roux going missing just over a month later he didn't get as far as writing any memoirs, and at the time I expect it would just be another staff car being shot up, which of course meant it probably contained officers of some sort, but they probably wouldn't have noticed his rank pennant, that would be expecting too much!!

    I have no further information on the crash site of Manson, only what is published in 2TAF, which is about as helpful as a chocolate teapot to us!!

    Regards

    Allan
     
  11. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Thanks Allan,

    The question as to who was responsible for the attack will probably never be known for certain, but all these little details are of interest in themselves.

    I'll bet there is an a official RAF report on the attack somewhere, perhaps not in TNA but in a rather more obscure location. Finding it in the first instance and then gaining access is unlikely to be a simple matter :D

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  12. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Apr 20, 2013
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    Hello Pat

    I don't believe this happened on the day, if it happened at all "Something was obviously afoot on the 17th, because a great bevy of Intelligence Officers arrived out of nowhere, including an Air Commodore, which was most unusual. Bruce and Jacques were questioned for a long time, but they were only able to repeat what they had already told our Spy at the time of the debriefing. (Did the horde of IOs really arrive that evening, the 17th - and how did they know so soon it was a 602 Squadron patrol which had attacked Rommel's car? - I agree, see my "Ultra comment")" - unless they were reacting to an Ultra feed about an attack on Rommel (which was obviously random and not a planned assassination attempt, or they would know which squadron was tasked with it), and they would have to proceed to every Squadron that was operating that day, in the appropriate area - both USAAF/RAF etc. to interview the aircrew, with the then possibility of an unintentional leak among personnel that we knew at the same time as the Germans that Rommel was out of action.

    I think, once again, that Clostermann is making a story to fit the circumstances - a very good story, but a story nonetheless!!

    "I'll bet there is an a official RAF report on the attack somewhere" - probably not, or they would then know definitively "who dun it!!" - it probably exists in an ORB (as in the case of 602), or even an 83 Group daily summary, as X staff car(s) and X MET/horsedrawn/motorcycles were attacked by Y Squadron in the area of Z, but with no specifics, and probably not even stating the area in the case of the 83 Group daily summary.

    In the case of the 125 Wing ORB, for example it reports that it was a good day against the Hun, only reporting S/Ldr le Roux and his activity against Me109's "in the vicinity of Vassy T.7932" and "MET claims reached the satisfactory total of 18 - 4 - 5" - so Rommel, if he was hit by 602, is just grouped in with the rest of the MET!!

    regards

    Allan
     
  13. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Allan,

    Thanks again for your thoughts.

    In order to give the thread balance, we should look at the other claims not yet covered here to date. I see the attack has been a subject of high interest on a number of the other forums, including 'RAF Commands', with a high level of certainty in some instances. I read some posts today wherein the proponents seem to have little doubt that it was 'our' squadron which got him.

    However, IMHO, one poster hit the nail on the head when he stated that it was every single individual member of the Allied Air Forces, both ground personnel and air crew, who 'got' Rommel, by helping to create the Allied air supremacy over Normandy.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  14. airforcedirector

    Guest

    [hr]

    To add to John's excellent comments, please consider this, as well:

    targets moving directly toward you, or directly away from you, portray the smallest profile. Consequently, an abeam attack is more advantageous. Additionally, if you are attacking from behind, or in front, any change in the target's speed means the pilot must adjust the longitudinal axis about the lateral axis of the aircraft - a death wish for pilots with target fixation and a slowing target. Again, an attack from abeam presents no such risks. Furthermore, an attack from in front or from behind risks collateral damage of others using the same road - perhaps innocents. Again, an abeam attack provides the pilot the ideal means of mitigating such disadvantageous circumstances. I have to side with Charley Fox, and his effort to explain why an attack down the road "is just not a good idea".

    Best regards,

    Dean Black

    Is anyone in this group perhaps interested in the claims of Major-General Richard Rohmer of Canada, who at 92 still believes he is the one who spotted Rommel, and radioed for Spitfires to attack him? Rohmer was flying in a 430 Squadron Mustang on a recce flight, and he said he could see Rommel clear as day, speeding along in that staff car on a side road very near Voumitieres. (please forgive my spelling).

    Sincerely,

    Dean
     
  15. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi Dean, and welcome to the forum!

    I knew there was a very logical answer to the approach down a road question. We just needed your Air Force perspective on the subject to clarify it. :D

    I think we would all be interested in the claims of Major-General Richard Rohmer. Any claims and details we can learn about the incident may help us all completely understand the incident.

    John
     
  16. airforcedirector

    Guest

    This footage is nothing like the images attributed to Miller. And, the date of the footage begins 24 July, almost a week later than 17 July.

    Sorry. I just cannot see how this footage would resemble the Miller images in the Montrose newspaper of December 1944.

    Dean

    [hr]
    This is quite remarkable. I like what you have done. However, I'm not sure from where you are drawing the conclusion "the car was at the bridge". The account I read, said something about the car hitting a stump, before finally ending up in the right-hand ditch, approximately where the sixth dashed white line is (past the bridge), and Rommel about 20 yards away lying in the middle of the road. If this account is accurate, then the "thing" you see in the image is exactly where it is supposed to be, not back at the bridge.

    Kind regards,

    Dean

    [hr]
    As regards the meaning of the letters "ASP", if you look at the photo of the 602 ORB page for 17 July 1944, in the early posts, you will see that it reads: “Aspi rant Remlinger destroyed a motor cyclist and damaged a truck". The word "Aspirant" would seem to be ideally abbreviated ASP, and is the equivalent of officer cadet, or officer candidate. Of course, the french verb aspirer means hoping or hope. In a way it seems to be mean hopeful, as in candidate, or an aspiring candidate - aspiring to higher rank.

    I wanted to comment on Clostermann - as far as aviation history is concerned, he is (or was) an oxygen bandit. In the early part of his book The Big Circus he describes an encounter with Canada's highest scoring Ace, Buzz Beurling. The encounter takes place in the officers' mess at some gunnery school, and Beurling is berated for his dress and discipline. Unfortunately, Beurling had been fired and sent back to Canada months before, so the reality is Clostermann made the whole thing up. His book is atrocious, but the French people were starving not just for food, but for war heroes as well.

    Dean


     
  17. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Dean,

    First, welcome to the Forum; we are delighted to have you on board and will doubtless benefit from your technical knowledge of all things aeronautical. Please do point out any errors or omissions as you see them arise - especially where I am going astray :D

    When I refer to the car ending up at the bridge, I am going solely on the caption to the photograph below published in the 'After The Battle' Magazine (issue 8, pages 42-45):
    [​IMG]

    The caption reads:
    Like all these accounts, the details hang on how well the witness's memory holds up as the years progress. As far as I know, the consensus seems to be that this is the location of the attack. Whether the car ended up closer to the gate lodge I cannot say without more conclusive aerial cover, if such a beast exists.

    Just to clarify that this thread was opened upon receipt of a request from Gerry Traynor of 602 Squadron (City of Glasgow) Museum asking us to take a look at the strafing incident. While we have largely concentrated on 602's account to date, we will of course look at all claims from other pilots and squadrons.

    Consequently, Dean please do let us have Major-General Richard Rohmer account. Did he actually identify the senior officier in the car as Rommel? Does he know which Spitfire squadron was tasked to respond to his call?

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  18. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 25, 2012
    570
    9
    Male
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Hi Dean,

    I went back and took another look at (end of post #7) Miller's 4 stills from World War II magazine from 1972 and the British Pathe video and when you compare terrain features in both you may get a better feel that they are the same.

    The video being unaltered, was followed by (I feel) someone generating 4 prints from the film that were both cropped and then altered or enhanced with 1972 technology.

    What I also think now too is that frame #1 was as the gun camera turned on before the rounds started impacting near the vehicle. the road in each frame seems to get wider as the aircraft gets closer. I think what we considered was possibly an upside down vehicle in the zoomed in image, in fact is not for a few reasons.
    The vehicle does not seem to move from the first frames where it was engaged and momentum would have moved the vehicle down the road.
    It is unlikely a pilot would have made another pass to confirm his "road kill" let alone from the exact same flightpath.
    I think it is just and odd shaped or covered vehicle.

    Either way I think we pretty much confirmed that Miller was not responsible for strafing Rommel because the terrain just does not match the known location for where the Rommel incident occurred.

    John
     
  19. airforcedirector

    Guest

    I would like to propose that all of the maps in this post are irrelevant, at least the references to the road would seem to be. If this is the case, then it makes our analysis of the Miller photos also irrelevant. It would appear we may have fallen into the trap of choosing an area of interest based on the roads that are available today, or even in 1970. Unfortunately, if we look at a map from 1944, I believe you may come to the same conclusion I have: we are not looking at the right road. In fact, it would seem the road that exists today, actually sits on what used to be railroad track in 1944. Please consider this map, and the enlargement - look carefully at the road pattern north of Vimoutiers, and look closely at the railroad track that also snakes northward out of vimoutiers. I believe you have focused on a road location that was actually a railroad track in 1944.

    Sincerely,

    Dean


    [attachment=139][attachment=140]
    [hr]
    Fascinating. I think I'm having second thoughts on my most recent post, too, questioning the position of the railway and the old road. However, I do like that first still. Can you see the ghostly image of an upside down vehicle just to the eight-o'clock position of the vehicle in the road?

    Dean


    [hr]
    Another aspect about these photos - even Miller's stills - is that the hedgerows are perpendicular to the road, but the gatehouse, and nearby property lines are at oblique or obtuse angles. Has someone rationalized these aspects yet?

    Dean
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
    Staff Member

    Oct 20, 2012
    2,547
    11
    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Dean,

    The railway track is now disused and has become a cycle/walking track as indicated by the purple line on the IGN map extract below:
    [​IMG]
    This confirms the road bed is now located as it was in 1944.

    While I know of no other location for the attack, I have wondered about the description of the events which puts the car somewhere between the gate lodge and the bridge in the 'After the Battle' article.

    Below is the author's labelled photo showing the sequence of events with the car traveling south east on the road (bottom to top in photo):
    [​IMG]

    I am particularly interested to know where exactly the car came back onto the main N179 Vimoutiers road from the 'sheltered' side road or lane. The article quotes Hauptmann Lang in this regard:

    So, where is this junction that they came out of to turn back onto the main road?

    The article continues...
    From this account, they obviously slowed or stopped to check the sky for aircraft at the junction. This implies to me that the lane or side road they were on before they came back to the main road was screening them from aerial view. So where is it?

    I did notice something curious when looking at Google 'street view' last night. If you look at the gate lodge here (red circled below), there is a striking resemblance between it and the building here (green circled below):
    [​IMG]

    It seems almost suicidal to try to outrun an attacking fighter based on the distance to the gate lodge in the 'After the Battle' aerial photo.

    Just trying to keep an open mind :D

    Regards,

    Pat
     

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