Hi Pat, Very nice job in finding these postcards! It is so interesting to see things as they appeared back then. If we cannot find the rail location, is there a reason to re-visit the Grisy location? The road crossing the track bothers me, but I wonder if the road could be sunken enough that by the angle of flight it just doesn't come into view in a frame. Maybe it is the location of where used to put the vehicle onto the track. ... I just don't know... John
Hi Ellen & John, Ellen, I am delighted your Mum is able to follow us; please pass on our best wishes to her. Its such a pity your Dad or his mates are not around to guide us, but every so often you do feel their presence. Lifting the veil of time for veterans, whether they are still with us or not, is a very great and humbling experience. John, I have just completed two more sweeps of the 1947 IGN cover: Mezidon-Canon to Sainte Pierre sur Dives (2 frames) Sainte Pierre sur Dives to Falaise (8 frames) Your site north of Grisy (as I understand you) is covered by frame 1 in the second sweep, Sainte Pierre sur Dives to Falaise. A down sized version is shown below: The yellow arrows indicate the track path as it enters and exits the frame. Your AoI is outlined in red and zoomed to below: The problem I see is that the gun camera footage shows the scrub and trees on the outside of the curve, while your location has them on the inside. Regards, Pat
Thanks Allan, just missed you there. The best site for finding old French postcards is here on Delcampe.fr. They should only be used for research purposes and always with a watermark to protect the interests of the seller. Regards, Pat
Thanks Pat Off subject, but a great personal link for me - I have just spent a short while looking at Moret-sur-Loing, where we lived in 1952, then at Fontainebleau where we moved in to new service flats in 1953 or 1954 (too far back to remember exactly), when Dad was at A.A.F.C.E. (Allied Air Forces Central Europe) HQ. I also went to school at the Palace of Fontainebleau before they built a new school for us NATO kids, and visited the place again last year - happy memories of good times (especially then as I had 2 parents and a sister - now sadly only me to remember those good times). regards Allan
Hi Allan, Glad you found the site useful, I have been fishing that pond for years now! As we are slightly off topic, can I sin as well and ask if anyone knows what this complex is or was south east of Caen. It's difficult to see but it was on a branch line of a branch line to the Caen / Mezidon-Canon main line. Here it is as it was in 1947 at lower left with the main line at top right: Please only reply if you are sure you know the answer; I want to keep this thread on course and will be deleting this post and your reply after a few days. Thanks, Pat
Hi All, Two more lines checked with no result: Falaise to Argentan (6 frames) Caen to Mezidon-Canon (7 frames) However, I do note some interesting small branch lines off the Caen to Mezidon-Canon main line which are now completely removed, in some cases to the extend or even taking away the track bed. It could be one of these...:dodgy: I went a bit far south going to Argentan but you never know with these searches what will turn up Regards, Pat
Hi John, I wonder if the embankment in the footage is not overpassing a road at all, but rather just allowing access from one side of a farm to the other like this very similar example to the east of Gare de Lison on the Bayeux / Carentan main line. Pity it's so far out of the patrol area... and on a straight section of double track Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, I have re-looked at this NCAP aerial here: http://ncap.org.uk/frame/1-1-54-1-231?search=keywords/grisy&free-text=yes I now think we can rule out Grisy. Looking at the NCAP image really seems to indicate a road crossing over the track in a raised span type. Then if you look closely at the NCAP image you will see the shadow of an arch cast in the along with the treeline shadows. There could be an access road as you describe that goes underneath. That could be possible. but it may also be possible there is no road at all. John
Hi All, John Versteege has done some very fine work on the gun camera footage from the 1st attack on the railway embankment. Below is his extract of the possible former French Panhard 178 armoured car modified by the Germans as the 'Schienenpanzer' railway protection vehicle: See section 5.5 of the vehicle's Wiki article here. There is no doubt that John's blowup shows a remarkable similarity to the photograph of a 'Schienenpanzer' below: Note the main gun facing the camera and the possible camouflage net partially draped over the aerial. John has pointed out one of the front wheels appears to have either fallen off or been removed, incapacitating the vehicle. This situation seems to be a pre-attack problem before Charlie Trainor came on the scene. I could be wrong but is it possible both front wheels are off and the vehicle is nose down on the track bed? In any event, thanks John for producing a great extract. Regards, Pat
If you guys are looking for railroads, this might help since a lot no longer exist. This is the Normandy part of the French railroad system, directly from an uncharted (by me) section of the the 7th Army KTB. AFAIK only the thicker lines are double tracks, the rest is single. I'm not really following this thread, but I think there has been a little too much time spend looking at double tracks. ;-) (As for the thick markings, those are blocked railroads on 13 June. So that's not realy interesting... for this thread)
Hi Niels, Yes, I am checking the double lines within or close outside the patrol area to make sure there are no associated uncharted branch lines or sidings. Also double tasking as I keep an eye out for the typhoon attack on a railway line (supposedly 'near Brest') as shown between 01:01 and 01:08 in the BP film 'Allies Winged Warfare' with some stirring music playing on another browser tab from the BP film 'Advance in Normandy' What more could you ask for on a freezing January morning at 01:40am? Regards, Pat
I'll re-phrase my previous post thanks to the clearer image from John... "This could well be the type we're looking at here..." If it is a Panhard 178 that would be quite interesting. Cheers, Sean
Hi All, I just had a quick look on Bing Maps at the next railway line to be checked using 1947 IGN cover later tonight. It's the Caen to Cambercourt Junction line which is a single track now dis-used. The southern end intersects the Conde to Falaise main line at Cambecourt. Below is the 'Y' junction as it appears today: <div><iframe width="500" height="400" frameborder="0" src="http://www.bing.com/maps/embed/viewer.aspx?v=3&cp=48.868094~-0.467830&lvl=17&w=500&h=400&sty=h&typ=d&pp=&ps=&dir=0&mkt=en-us&src=SHELL&form=BMEMJS"></iframe><div style="margin: 12px 0 0 0;"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.bing.com/maps/?cp=48.868094~-0.467830&sty=h&lvl=17&sp=&mm_embed=map">View Larger Map</a> | <a target="_blank" href="http://www.bing.com/maps/?cp=48.868094~-0.467830&sty=h&lvl=17&rtp=~pos.48.868094_-0.467830____&mm_embed=dir">Get Directions</a> | <a target="_blank" href="http://www.bing.com/maps/?cp=s4b6dpgytxcg&sty=b&lvl=18&sp=&mm_embed=be">View Bird's Eye</a></div></div> This is the line which crosses the massive viaduct below Clecy, where the B-26 Marauder aerial footage was shot. There is a great GE 'street view' vista from the viaduct here. I like this track; it has several nice curves which might match the gun camera footage. The problem is that, like all these dis-used sections of track, a lot of foliage and trees have been allowed to grow up along the track sides, making a tie difficult to find. Hopefully the 1947 IGN cover will lift the veil tonight. In the meantime, if anyone sees a potential match, please post your observations. Regards, Pat
From John Versteege I'm looking at the picture again, and noticed that it now seems to me that the left front wheel is off, possibly the right hand wheel as well, and even the right back wheel... Now, what does that mean?... I looked at the photo of the Panhard you posted as well as the one Sean posted. Those wheels are very beefy, designed to drive on a railway track, and must weigh several hundred pounds each...Could it be that this vehicle was stopped there on the track, in the middle of a wheel exchange, replacing the train wheels for road wheels, and if so, could it be that the track was accessible to by a regular road nearby??? Just a thought (or two... http://normandy.whitebeamimages.ie/forum/images/smilies/dodgy.gif ) [hr]
Hi John, You mentioned that there was at least one crewman seen to jump aside from the vehicle as Charlie Trainor opened fire, so I presume there is some mechanical issue prior to the attack. I also assume there is no infantry support to the crew as the idea of employing these vehicles was to patrol long stretches of track quickly to keep the French Resistance guys from planting explosives or removing track ties to cause derailment. I doubt if the rail wheels could be changed for road wheels 'in the field' but I could be wrong. I also wonder if the apparent damage to the vehicle was caused by a previous strafing by either Charlie Trainor, another aircraft from the patrol or indeed from a different patrol altogether. The explosive canon rounds from the Spitfire may have been enough to cause the vehicle to loose its wheels but I suspect a vital part of the axel or steering rods would have had to have been severed. Like I saw, pure speculation on my part Regards, Pat
Hello Pat! Pardon the pun... but all your assertions could be indeed " BANG ON!" . This was not a vehicle on which one could use a 12 volt air pump, and a regular car jack...More like a small crane! So, at least my feeling is that the axle to the left wheel must have been smashed, and that leaves us in the dust on what was really going one. Maybe other members may have some suggestions... Regards. John
I guess I'm still confused about the timing thing: if Charlie Trainor's cinegun film with a start-time of 16:30 "Double-British-Time" is accurate, then this attack probably takes place sometime between 17:00 and 17:30 DBT. Rohmer tells us he spotted Rommel southbound on N179 at 17:05 DBT. To me that suggests Trainor's attack on this staff car west of Livarot is at about the same time Rohmer spots Rommel about 10 km away and south of Livarot. What am I doing wrong, timing wise, anything? Dean
Hi Dean and All, I wonder if we should quote time here on the Forum in Universal Time (UT)? I know both amateur and professional astronomers use it all over the world for continuity in observing the night sky. It's the same as the GMT time zone but 'daylight saving' is not used. I am sure there must be an online converter somewhere Regards, Pat
Greetings all, Re: Time on gun camera footage. We queried this earlier and I thought the gun cameras were not time sensitive...is this correct? The time listed on the footage/Charlie Trainor ID page says 1630. Since there are 3 strafing attacks on this footage, I understood this is the approximate time given to the "camera man" on return to base. Our father left Beny sur Mer at 1600 and returned at 1710 on his first sortie on July 17th; according to the 411 ORB. When Pat and Team solve the rail puzzle (attack #1) and move to attack #2; I expect they will be able to triangulate the 3 sites and provide a firmer time sequence (with the assistance of Don and a few apple trees!). Regards, Ellen