Hi Guys, I was so sure this afternoon the location was nailed 20Kms NW of Lisieux that I was about to pop the champagne... ...until I checked the 1947 IGN cover: The crucifix even looks about the correct height in 'street view' here. If only they hadn't removed the barn, built the curved avenue and planted mature apple trees all over the two fields in the intervening three years :s The people who designed the IGN maps are also not in my favour at the moment - the angled black building is not the barn but a symbol they use to indicate a private road! I wonder can you gain plenary indulgences by visiting these shrines in GE 'street view' - if you can then I am well on the way to salvation, having 'visited' over fifty in the last few days :angel: Regards, Pat
Gentlemen I have been enlarging these until the pixels squeaked, but still cannot come up with anything different to your findings. We truly do need the 1947 IGN data to give us a feel for the time, and street view is fantastic to check things out now. Without them both to compare "then" and "now" we would be totally lost, that's for sure. regards Allan
Hi Allan, Just a few thoughts thinking out loud: The 'truck' has me puzzled; the body seems to be in the far field with the hedgerow on this side of it but the cab appears to be in the lane. I wonder are the two connected at all? The location is not the flat arable farmland to the SE of Caen, nor is it reclaimed marshland. I also doubt if these calvaries were ever moved; the one exception being during road widening or if they posed a danger to visibility at junctions. I have come across some very new looking timber versions which may be replacements for the old stone or concrete ones. Can I ask any of our French readers/members if it's possible to add notes to a saved version of the IGN map on their site here? It would save a huge amount of time if you could add a note at a site something like 'checked'. I have been playing around with the third tool down on the tool bar at right (circled red below) but can't quite get to grips with it. Any help very much appreciated. Thanks guys, Pat
Pat Quoted I wonder can you gain plenary indulgences by visiting these shrines in GE 'street view' - if you can then I am well on the way to salvation, having 'visited' over fifty in the last few days..... Pat, Our father had a strong faith so expect he is smiling "up there" with all these religious visitations! With great interest and gratitude, we follow your meticulous efforts. Thank you. Ellen
Hello Pat I had wondered if it was some type of articulated vehicle, perhaps with the trailer detached for some reason, but couldn't get anything like clear enough to make it out properly, and that is the problem!! regards Allan
Hi All, We could do with some divine inspiration at this stage Ellen I could be wrong but the blow up I extracted from still No. 13 seems to show some dark pixels at the three points of the crucifix, like the end points are throwing back proportionally less light then the rest of the vertical and horizontal members. See below again: Also, there seems to be an ornate collar about one third of the way up the vertical member - very like the one here. It's not the right location (more apple trees on the 1947 cover) but I wonder if this design is local to the area between Caen and Lisieux? :dodgy: Regards, Pat
I would like to offer perhaps a rather odd suggestion/idea: what if the askew "building" to the right of the T-junction, wasn't a "building" at all? What if that "building" is actually the truck target Charlie was after, but mere seconds before it navigates the left-hand turn down the "somewhat more protected laneway? I can't seem to understand why such a large truck is completely nowhere to be seen, in image 10, but there it is hugely so, in the following sequences. I'm probably wrong, but when I look at that askew "building" I begin to see not an open door, but the open end of the canvas truck, and what looks like a roof top to me begins to look like a dust cloud reflecting sunlight back toward the camera in an oddly rectangular (length of the truck) shape. Dean
Hi Dean, I am pretty sure we are looking at an open gabled fodder store or barn. The roof ridge is offset to one side, very much like this one in Troarn which I was looking at just a few minutes ago on Bing Maps - this is an embedded map so you can zoom it out to see where we are: <div id="mapviewer"><iframe id="map" scrolling="no" width="500" height="400" frameborder="0" src="http://www.bing.com/maps/embed/?v=2&cp=49.187454~-0.179999&lvl=20&sty=a&q=Fontaine-la-Louvet%2C%20France&form=LMLTEW&emid=33935782-1ae7-7012-b049-6e4b6d8b69a2"></iframe><div id="LME_maplinks" style="line-height:20px;"><a id="LME_largerMap" href="http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=49.187454~-0.179999&lvl=20&sty=a&q=Fontaine-la-Louvet%2C%20France&form=LMLTEW" target="_blank" style="margin:0 7px">View Larger Map</a><a id="LME_directions" href="http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=49.187454~-0.179999&lvl=20&sty=a&q=Fontaine-la-Louvet%2C%20France&form=LMLTEW&rtp=%7Epos.49.187453999999995_-0.17999899999999736_Troarn" target="_blank" style="margin:0 7px">Driving Directions</a></div></div> The one in the footage may be just as short in length at this example too. No GE 'street view' near it though unfortunately to get a look under the eaves but it's not our location in any event. Regards, Pat
Hi Dean, I am certain that the barn is not a truck. The scale of it is just too big as it would be much wider than the road even in the foreground. I think what we have to remember is that in frame 10 you can't make out a truck on the road, but the frame is a bit fuzzy and in black and white. Charlie Trainor was using a pilots most important asset, his eyes, and the image he saw would have been very clear as he looked at the truck. Plus we have to remember that this strafing footage comes only when the trigger is pulled. We forget or should consider that while a pilot is looking around, he may have identified this target as he passed over just seconds earlier and then banked around to attack. John
Hi Guys, It just dawned on me that the Operations Record Book (ORB) is made up of two forms (Form 540 Summary, Form 541 Record) plus Appendices :exclamation: I copied the description below from this web page: The two Appendix references in 411's July ORB Form 541 Record are as follows: 16:00 Patrol - A.259 20:25 Patrol - A.260 They are both missing from the two ORB PDFs which we acquired from TNA. These documents, if they still exist, might shed more light on where the attacks took place on the 17th July. I done a quick search on TNA site using the search term "411 RCAF" and got these 96 hits. Note especially these two results: Search Result No. 04 (AIR 27/1803) 1st June 1941 to 31st December 1943 Search Result No. 64 (AIR 27/1804) 1st January 1944 to 31st March 1946 These two documents are different to the other 94 or so monthly ORB Form 540s or Form 541s and unlike the rest cannot be purchased as downloadable pdfs. This tells me that they are both substantial volumes and probably prohibitively expensive to order copies thereof from TNA. However, I think we need to get someone to look through AIR 27/1804 to see if it contains the two appendices A.259 and A.260. Anyone going to Kew in the near future who might be able to have a look for us? Thanks, Pat
Yes, I have found that if you can grab a frame from these gun camera films in between bursts of fire they are much sharper than when the guns are operating. Vibration and muzzle flash degrade the clarity quite considerably. Regards, Pat
Hi Folks, Ellen has asked that we leave 'Charlie's Church' at this location for a little longer to allow all readers of this popular thread to become aware of it's new home as per my post above. Happy to oblige Ellen We'll stay put for another week or so. Regards, Pat
Pat, you are a gentle-man! Appreciate a few extra days to transition, thank-you. The third Nor'easter crippling Eastern Canada this week dictates shovelling not web browsing activities. Any new interest should not be lost due to the navigation of a massive snow bank. Regards, Ellen
Hello there, A trip down to the Orne today allowed for a swing past Boissey.... Just a brief stop as darkness was approaching but long enough to look at the calvary for any damage. Nothing on the cross itself but one of the railings had a definite strike in/on it: And in close up... Not much but something. On another note, I have a friend who's going to the National Archives next week and I've asked if he can have a look at AIR27/1804. Hopefully he'll get a chance to and I'll let everyone know if it contains anything useful as soon as I do. Cheers, Sean
Great photo Sean! Thanks for taking the time out to photograph the scene for us. Looking at the map on pages 82-83 of 'Ruckmarsch! - The German Retreat from Normandy' by Jean Paul Pallud, I see that the 51st (Highland) Division were on the D4 pushing on Livarot around the 17th - 19th August. The bullet strike may be from that action but I prefer to think it was one of Charlie Trainor's ricochets from a month earlier Regards, Pat
Thanks Sean, Pictures of the damage to the gate/fence are quite intriguing. Would the indentation be the actual size of a bullet? I know a Canadian navy chap posted to London but unfortunately he is away from his office till Feb.16. If your friend is unable to visit TNA, I will ask the "Senior Service" to muddle around in a little Air Force history! Ellen
Hello Sean I note Ellen's comment above "would the indentation be the actual size of a bullet?", which also raises the question, in which direction did the bullet come from if it is to have any relevance to this query? regards Allan
Hi All, I hadn't paid much attention to the exact location of Sean's bullet strike photo, but looking at it again, it appears to be on the side section of railing closest to the village. It is also on the field side of the hedgerow which means if it came from the west, it could only have come from this angle as a ricochet off the road surface and flying between the white reflector post and the brick corner pier - just about where Charlie Trainor's bullet or cannon rounds are impacting in the footage. Speaking of damage to calvaries, I was down south last night in my virtual Google Earth world checking the one near Mont Ormel to see if it might match the location of the 2nd attack - it doesn't but I did learn a valuable lesson on this 'pilgrimage' - don't assume these sites are as they were in 1944. Today's crucifix as seen here is a somewhat lessor replacement of the one which stood here in that long ago summer of 1944. The photo below is from page 48/49 of my trusty old 1965 edition of 'The Battle of the Falaise Gap' by Eddy Florentin: The extraordinary battle damage is testament to the furious fighting in this area as the Polish 1st Armoured Division, as part of First Canadian Army, strived desperately to 'shut the door' on the Falaise Pocket around the 19th/20th August. Note how part of the old plinth has been used in the new calvary. Also note the building over the middle white reflector post in the above Google Maps 'street view - lets 'walk up the D16 and take a look at it from this angle. This is exactly the type of barn or shed that I envisage the one in the 2nd attack footage to be - including the lean-to Pity it's not on the other side of the road - and yes, I did check the 1947 IGN cover to see if has been relocated Regards, Pat
Hello there, Pat, you're right (again..) re the location of the impact and thus the directionality (if that's the right word, I only ever heard it used on CSI) per Allan's comment. Ellen, in terms of it's size, I'd say a bit small for 20mm but about right for .50cal.. Cheers, Sean