Hi Patricia, No, unfortunately its not that simple. First, we depend on the archive held in Edinburgh, Scotland at the National Collection of Aerial Photography (NCAP) for about 95% of the reconnaissance cover we use here on the Forum. Readers here often wonder how a Scottish archive ended up with the bulk of both RAF and USAAF reconnaissance cover sorties (missions) flown over Europe, but that's a different story; suffice to say that they are the primary source today. There are several levels of problems when checking for cover in their archive even if we can identify a potential farmhouse: There may have been no sorties flown over the farmhouse If there were sorties flown, NCAP may not hold the prints If NCAP hold prints from a sortie, they may be from missions flown prior to June 25th -or- have too much cloud cover -or- be of poor quality If NCAP hold prints from a suitable sortie, the prints may not be digitised yet and would require a manual search in Edinburgh to find them Below is a screenshot from Google Earth centered on St Lo having entered the search term 'Lower Normandy' in the NCAP search box: If you have Google Earth installed on your computer, I can tell you how to save this file so that the markers show when you open the program. When you hover over one of the markers with your mouse, a rough boundary of the photograph shows the extent of cover - I hovered on the top left green marker as I took the screenshot. Clicking that marker brought me to this page on the NCAP site. A paid account is necessary to zoom the photograph. However, all this only comes into play if we can identify one or more potential sites for the farmhouse. To get to that point, we need to have some idea of where I Company were on the 25th June and this is where we are at present - attempting an educated guess at potential locations for the farmhouse. Another possible way forward is for us to supply Loyd with screenshots from Google Earth 'Street View' but again, not all laneways and minor roads have been swept by the GE 'Street View' vehicle. So, in answer to the second part of your question... ...yes, BUT we live in world of 80% certainty here on the Forum Patricia (at least I do ). It's very rare that we can be one hundred percent certain in these searches and I always caution against expectations of a eureka moment. Regards, Pat
Thanks for explaining this to me. Even though the information is not guaranteed to be 100% accurate, it's as close to being accurate (and being there) as I'll get in my lifetime. This is very valuable to me so I won't take the information for granted and sincerely appreciate all efforts to locate the area. Patricia
Not directly about the 116th, but the AAR of the 115th does mention your uncle's regiment quite a lot: http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/research/online_documents/d_day/1944_06_After_Action_Report.pdf In addition to what Pat's been saying, it's important to realize what we are working with. Much of the information we are using here is not 'close enough', neither in time nor detail. We can select a fairly wide area where things must have taken place, but it's the narrowing down that is the problem. The documents we currently have do not provide the kind of detail to make this easier. The ideal scenario would be finding the battalion and regimental journals. Journals are different from After Action Reports. The later are usually a summery of the events that took place during a specific month, and usually written about a month after the actual fighting took place. They can be brilliantly detailed, but usually they are not. Journals are different, they usually are a list of messages written down when they arrived. This kind of documents tends to tell where and where a certain battalion and even companies were.
Hi All, Good points Niels. Does anyone know if the 3/116th Journals survive? Patricia, the next time you are talking to your uncle Loyd, can you ask him if he knew any of the officers in the farmhouse CP - we need to know if the location was either a company or a battalion CP and also if it's possible that it did not belong to 3rd Battalion, but perhaps 1st Battalion on their left. Assuming for the moment that it was a 3rd Battalion location, I have done up some screenshots for thoughts running through my head just now - and, like I stated in my last post, they may not be correct. First, there is a dead stop in the advance by the 116th IR on the 18th June as per orders from on high - see this extract from page 383 of 'Cross Channel Attack': This is excellent news from our point of view in that it ties down our search area for the farmhouse to some degree. The map extract below comes from Map XIX in the same document and ties down the 116th IR positions as of the evening of the 18th June - and consequently the next two weeks, including Sunday 25th: Note how the German lines pass through Belle Fontaine curving south east down towards Hill 147 on the Martinville Ridge. I have circled two ties above in green (bend in the D6 road) and red (the left flank of 1/116th IR hinged on the D59 road). The same ties are marked on a Google Maps extract below with terrain features turned on: Just for the heck of it and until someone knocks me off my perch, I am going to, initially at least, search this area for suitable candidates We may very well have to broaden the search area, depending on results and on Loyd's further recollections, but it is at least a start. Regards, Pat
Don't know if any survived, do know where you would be able to find them ;-) Battlezone Nr.10 mentions the box numbers at NARA. The book itself also looks good, have had it for years, never read it because this is not my main area of interest. The 116th is mentioned on 26 pages and i'll go through them to see what I can find.
Thanks Niels, When you get the chance, it would be great to see if the 26 pages advance our quest here. I can find no digitised NCAP cover for the current AoI but there may be frames in the archive not yet scanned. The next best option, at least for the moment, is IGN cover flown in 1947 and I had more success on their site: Note the green and yellow ties again for orientation. Although this cover was flown three years after the events we are studying, it is rare for dramatic changes to have occurred in the short time frame. Damaged houses, generally, will have been repaired or completely demolished depending on how severe the battle damage was. You will note I have divided my yellow box into four quadrants for ease of reference. The good news is that the area shaded yellow has very few houses but does have one heck of a lot of apple trees I can only find two houses in quadrant #1, but if anyone spots any others, please let us know: The screenshots below are from Bing Maps (better resolution than Google Maps): Patricia, can you print these two and hold them until I get a chance to check the other three quadrants. You can then show them to Loyd and ask him if any looks familiar. Option 1_A looks to be a grouping of three farmhouses or smaller cottages but its difficult to be sure. The house at bottom with the grey roof seems to have a pond beside it. Option 1_B is very much larger farmhouse or chateau with a very distinctive footprint. It may be several floors high and has dormer windows in the roof. More to follow... Regards, Pat Edit inserted @ 20:52 The IGN site has some nice new maps done for D-Day and the First World War - see their page here.
OK, quadrant #2, Again, we only have two houses that I can see on the 1947 IGN cover: Option 2_A is a small cottage style house with an L shaped shed on the north west corner of the property. Below is a Bing Maps screenshot showing both structures and they appear to be unchanged since 1947: This house is on the D448 road, not far from the GE 'street view' swept D59 T junction and I had hoped to catch a glimpse of it from that location but unfortunately there is a blinking great water tower and pumping station blocking the view :s Option 2_B is a working farm and the buildings numbered 1-4 inclusive were all there in 1947. The livestock sheds with the skylights in the roofs are all post 1947 additions: More follows... Regards, Pat
Thanks for this information! I'll show it to my uncle. (His dog didn't survive, unfortunately, but he's dealing with that ok. The recognition he's received in the past few days from the community re: 70th anniversary of D-Day has meant alot to him.) The point is, I think he's ready to pick up where we left off. I don't want to complicate the issue, but when I initially showed him a photo of 'The Fortified House' or 'Bingham House', (while trying to see if he recognized any landmarks on the beach to determine where he landed) he said, "That looks like that house I was headed to when I got hit." He clarified it wasn't a house at the beach though. Patricia
Hi Patricia, Below is a photo of Bingham House on Omaha Beach: So, can we safely say that the farmhouse was not a single storey? Regards, Pat
That's correct. Based on his reaction to seeing the Bingham House and what he said, it was not a single story farmhouse. I've been reading some things regarding command posts that may have been in that area, and not the 116th in particular. I may be far off on this since I'm not sure about what I'm looking for. I'm going to list the site I was reading. Maybe it has information that fits. Maybe not. I need someone who knows what their doing to check it, please. Thanks for helping! http://www.29infantrydivision.org/WWII-Documents/29th_Division-115th_Regiment-After_Action_report-44-June.html Patricia
Hi Patricia, This is my take on the locations mentioned in the 115th AAR for June: "...afternoon of 16th June 44 when the 2nd Battalion moved against a strong point of enemy resistance 300 yards north of Minet and west of St. Clair (sur l'Elle) [A]..." [*]"...During the night the 1st Battalion moved north through St. Clair (sur l'Elle) [A] toward Les Foulons [C]..." [*]...The next morning the 2nd Battalion was moved southeast to Couvains [D] and attached to the 116th Infantry..." [*]"The next afternoon the the 1st and 2nd Battalions moved southeast towards Couvains [D] and then west to Bois de Bretel [E]. The Regimental CP followed to Bois de Bretel [E]..." [*]"...The 2nd Battalion 115th Infantry was detached from the 116th Infantry, and under Regimental control, relieved the 2nd Battalion, 116th Infantry on the morning of 19th June44, taking over positions north of La Foussardiere [F]..." [*]"...The Regimental CP, originally at Bois de Bretel [E], moved to rear of 2nd Battalion, and then to 657682 [?]..." I suspect that 'Minet' should read 'l'Hyvet' and 'north' should read 'south'. Bois de Bretel [E] appears to be the Option 2B farmhouse on the 1947 IGN cover, although the word 'bois' is the French word for wood, so the name may refer to the two woods across the D448 road. La Fossardiere (F) is the hamlet just over the D448 - see large scale IGN map extract below: The last quote with reference to Lambert Coordinates 657682 [?] appears to be a typo, if my map rading is up to scratch as I am getting a point over seven miles to the east: I am not following the 115th movements in this thread so the location may well be correct for all I know; just seems too far away...or is the error mine :huh: Anyone able to check the coordinates please? Thanks, Pat
Hi Pat and Patricia, I am sure it was a typo on the lambert coordinance so I checked 557682 on echodelta and came up with a location just west of Couvains and north of the D92 at a farm complex. Check vt557682 in the French Lambert zone 1 here: http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-translator.php Could be a very good possibility! Also inverted numbers of 567682 is a possibility too... close to another farm there. John
Thanks John, That sounds much better. Am I reading you correctly as per location below? Regards, Pat
Yes Pat, that is the location. There could also had been the inverted first two numbers which would be 567682. Another farmhouse (Le hamel Renouf). John
Patricia, All the 'St-Lo' related footage I have seen so far is dated July but the link below is to a sequence just marked '1944'. Might be no harm to run it by Loyd and see if he recognises any of the medics. Unlikely, but you never know The link is here. Regards, Pat
Thanks John, Missed you there; I'll post a screenshot of the inverted location tomorrow. It's 1:20am here. Regards, Pat
Hi All, I sent a request to the owners of The 116th Infantry Regiment Foundation & Museum site to see if they have any records which might help us track down CP locations for the 25th June. Regards, Pat
Normally you can get 6 or 8 digit coordinates from the Morning Reports which are day to day. A significant number of MRs are still kept in St. Louis. If you have a specific day in mind Golden Arrow research could pull all the 116th companies MRs for the day in question. I have done that for tracking the 3rd Battalion 508th PIR company locations for the whole Normandy campaign. Sometimes the MRs have interesting tidbits about what is going on and listing of casualties etc. I think I remember that the 29th Division Association has a complete set of MRs.