Hi Guys, Any chance of matching the Horsa wreck seen at time mark 01:36 in this Critical Past footage to the one which Charles referenced in his post here on the 'Hoatson Horsa Wreck' thread? Don't have access to my own PC just now. Thanks, Pat
Hi All, Not the same certainty as John's Hoatson Horsa location, but I think we may have the ground footage of the wreck in the orchard located too. The AoI is indicated by the red rectangle on NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1002 below: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.aerial.rcahms.gov.uk ...and zoomed to here with an inverted version also to help matters along: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.aerial.rcahms.gov.uk Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.aerial.rcahms.gov.uk I found a better version of the Critical Past ground footage and produced two good stills which hopefully tie in with the reconnaissance cover: Those of you who have the high resolution copy of NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1002 will hopefully see what I take to be one of the horizontal stabiliser stays as a thin dark line on the upturned piece of detached tail section...or am I seeing what I want to see? :s In any event, please let me have your take on this possible match between ground and air. Do we also have a possible candidate for the Charles C. Bass, Jr. Horsa? I wonder what that name reads? Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, I think you have a good possibility for a match. One thing I think you may have wrong is your camera angle . I think the camera angle is more likely from between the two lighter colored trees in the orchard to the east. John
Hi John, Could be the angle is off a bit alright now that I look at it again. You can just imagine the camera guy shooting the Hoatson glider on the road and then wandering into the orchard and shooting this wreck - like we saw down south at the 'Edna' site in the Pond Field. Strange to think we are coming up on seventy years of a time lapse. I often wonder if, perhaps not these highly populated frames, but some of the other obscure reconnaissance cover we have looked at; are we the only people to have looked at these frames since they were initially assessed by the PIs? Regards, Pat
Pat, I think there are several other possible “match” points. Look at the port flap area, the “debris” on the aft portion of the starboard wingtip and the shadows at the starboard wing root. I’ll send a comparison shot to you off-Forum. Once again, great job. Kevin
Another impressive analysis! It does look like a very possible match of the aerial shot and ground shot of the Horsa glider across the road from Hoatson. I would, however, offer a different explanation regarding the possible horizontal stabilizer stay (which I don't think diminishes the likelihood of the suggested match). In the first of the still shots, if you follow the suggested stabilizer stay from the ground upward, it looks like it continues behind and beyond the dark tree, second from the left in the frame, making it look more like a tree branch, or a separate small tree. It appears to have small branches of its own which may be laying, in part, at the end of what remains of the starboard wing. It may not be a separate tree, however. Turning again to the very left of the frame, it looks like the glider may have caught a "branch" of the far left tree on the way down, tearing it off, and leaving what appears to be a light colored gaping wound on the trunk of that tree. Although we are able to see this tree in the aerial shot, we can't see the wound, simply because of the angle from which the aerial picture was taken. A question: In both of the Critical Past stills, we see sort of an elliptical shaped dark area above the starboard wing, near the very center of the picture. Are we looking into the separated rear section of the glider? Just trying to get oriented. Charles
Hi Charles, I see what you mean by the marked stabilizer stay being a bent over tree trunk and after thinking about it, I agree with you. It seems to be too long to be a stabilizer stay. The dark area above the center does look to be damage to the glider, but I dont think it was intended to get a jeep or 1/4 ton truck and trailer out. I think the seperation was a result of the crash. If they made the effort to break away the tail to get the jeep or truck out, they would have left the tail further away from the rest of the horsa. Maybe one possibility was that they cut away the forward section and removed it out the front under the tree. Until we look into the other Horsa wrecks, I have a little bit of doubt that this may be your father's Horsa. We will be able to look further though because Pat is also ordering the high resolution copy of aerial 1001 that gives us additional horsa wrecks in the area to investigate along with this current work. John
Thanks for the response, John. The opening I was looking at does appear to have been the result of the crash. So, we are looking into a portion of the rear of the glider, but not at the designed separation point. As for whether or not this was my father's glider, I think I have a ways to go before suggesting that this, or any other glider, was his. I am just very thankful for the resources and help that have been available to me to make a search. I have a good degree of confidence that I'm looking in the correct general area; but that's about it for now. Looking forward to the high resolution copy of the frame 1001 aerial. Charles
Hi Charles, This location is still worth studying as a possibility because I recall the statement made that it Took three hours to get truck out. This could mean that they couldn't get it out the back of the horsa because of the damage, but maybe they hacked their way out the front of the horsa under the tree. I doubt they were able to get the truck out by just detaching the tail, and that we are looking for a glider that is damaged both by wreck and long deliberate and intentional acts to remove the truck. This horsa could still fit that possibility. We just have to compare aerials and ground footage with all the statements of your father. A question for Pat and everyone, does the nose of this horsa seem too far forward to be attached to the body? is there a way to measure the overall length somehow to determine this possibility? John
Hi Guys, I re-scanned the 82nd glider location map at 1200dpi to get a good quality zoom of the 'rust' (red & brown) markers showing the 32 - 34 serial locations NE of Sainte Mere Eglise... ...then overlaid it on a GE screenshot, using the western bend of the Merderet River and Sainte Mere Eglise as ties to geo-position: The red rectangle above is zoomed to below: It's a very rough representation of the locations for these four serials and I have no idea which is red and which is brown. I do note however the heavy concentration astride the D17 road NE of Sainte Mere Eglise which is our current AoI. Frame 1001 of Sortie 4108 should show more of the southern part of this cluster. A high resolution copy at 1600dpi is currently on order from NCAP and should be with us by the end of next week. A low resolution proof is shown below: Note construction of the La Londe A6 ALG underway at lower centre left which of course would have necessitated moving many of the gliders in that part of the cluster south of the D17. Regards, Pat
Hi John, I don't have any measurements at this time to address your question of whether the nose of the glider may be detached from the rest of the body. However, I have looked at both of the glider images over and over again, and have rerun the video segment so many times that I'm afraid I might wear out. This is what I think I am seeing: Look at the still frames at the point where the front of what is left of the wing joins with the top of the fuselage. As you look just to the right, it is as if we are looking right through the Horsa. What I see at that point looks like whatever foliage is beyond the glider fuselage. There seems to be a gap, a separation. Here is another way for me to try to direct you or anyone to the spot I am referencing. To the immediate left of the tree in the foreground at the right, there is some sort of shrubbery or hedge or possibly tree debris. Whatever it is, it has a hedge-like look. The area I am focusing on is to the immediate left of this foliage. The video obviously shows the same area and may also be showing some movement of leaves or whatever is being pushed around by the breeze, beyond where the glider body would be. This may all be wrong. My eyes may be deceiving me; certainly wouldn't be the first time. Anyway, just some thoughts. Charles
Hi Guys, Yes, I think the Horsa is too long to be intact on its longitudinal axis. To what degree I am not sure but it could be as much as the red bracket below: I doubt if the apple trees caused this catastrophic damage though. Regards, Pat
All, A little late in the discussion, but comparing the NCAP aerial of the orchard and the Critical Past ground shot, I found several other similar points that also support the case that this is a match. In the slide below, from the left to right: - In the NCAP photo, on the aft portion of the starboard wing tip, there appears to be a shadow or dark area. In the ground photo, there appears to be some sort of “debris”, possibly disturbed soil, foliage or tree material. - In both photos, in the vicinity of the starboard wing root, there appears to be a dark area, possibly a tear in the glider’s fuselage. - In both photos, on the port wing, there appears to be another tear, possibly related to the wing flap structure. R/ Kevin
Lots of interesting details in 1002. With so many objects to discuss, I thought I'd better organize myself by numbering each location. I have long been interested in burned gliders and in the difference between foxholes and shell impacts, so you'll see several of those ruminated over. I am also interested in tracking Horsas containing jeeps along with either guns or trailers. Though far from certain, my theory is that Horsas that kept their tails on carried either personnel only or personnel and hand carts. The 82AB manifest shows only 14 passengers in Horsas without guns, jeeps, or trailers, so I can only conclude that these gliders also carried two hand carts – which, like personnel, could be unloaded without removing the tail. Bad crashes and chopped up Horsas make the tail/no tail determination uncertain in some cases, but I've taken my best shot at it. In the following descriptions, anything with a question mark is really, really uncertain. Note also that Pat's aerial video shows another Horsa – with tail on – just off the bottom edge of 1002. And further, the Esvelin photo might show another glider blocking D17 just off the SW edge of 1002. Those two would bring the total in the area to 18-20. Counting only the Horsas listed, the tail/no tail count is something like: 8 tail on; 8 tail off; one uncertain. LTC Bertsch, CO of 319 GFAB, notes he landed at 2115. Assuming watches were synchronized, are there other reports of landing times that could help us sort out the order of landing? One final question: Bertsch also reports receiving artillery fire. How do we differentiate shell hole from foxhole? Bertsch mentions enemy artillery airbursts, so is it possible some of the large white areas on the ground (that look like a big bag of flour was split open) that don't have a hole in the center are from these airbursts - scorched grass? This area appears to be a high sand ridge, so, unlike the Pond Field, I doubt any of the holes seen are watering holes – but they could be foxholes dug by later arriving units since dry, open ground at the intersection of two major roads makes for a great camping spot. Arguing against the latter is the absence of large numbers of tire tracks. The position of these holes – mostly clustered in hedgerow corners – seems ideal for hasty entrenchment. Their spacing looks like they could have been dug by non-infantry working in darkness. Most of these locations require a look at the hi-res version, so you may have to print this marked up lo-res version to refer to. Comments on these are welcome as is identification of additional objects. Since marking up the image, I see a couple of possible armored vehicles along the NW edge of the image – SW of the film arrow. Maybe my eyeballs are working better today. Hope yours are even better – despite the length of this post. Frame 1002 Comments ID # (10-40) 10 - Burned glider/shell hole? 11 – Burned glider/shell hole? 12 – Group of foxholes? 13 – Shell hole 14 – Horsa – tail on 15 thru 21 – Horsa – tail off (I blew drawing the circle on #17) 22 – Foxholes/shell holes/mortars? 23 – Horsa wing? 24 – German zig zag trench 25 – Big concentric circles – AAA position or farm activity? 26 – German zig zag trench 27 – Shell holes? 28 – Horsa under trees – tail on 29 – Horsa wing + other wreckage 30 – Horsa – tail on/off? 31 – Horsa – tail on 32 – Horsa across road – tail on 33 – Horsa wreckage – or maybe 2 Wacos? 34 – Horsa with wing in La Londe driveway – tail off 35 – Horsa along road shoulder - tail on 36 – Wreckage in La Londe driveway + at corner of field adjoining on the East (2 spots) 37 – Waco 38 – Horsa across road – tail on 39 – Glider wreckage – maybe Horsa tail? 40 – Horsa – tail on
Hi Guys, Thanks to all of you for your ties between the air and ground images of the 'Orchard Horsa'. Because of your enthusiasm I have upped my level of certainty to just under my 80% threshold As to Don's numbers, I was intrigued by the field corner at No.s 24-26 inclusive: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.aerial.rcahms.gov.uk This corner seems to be some sort of fortified position with perhaps a searchlight or AA pit at No. 25. What I take to be a barrack hut marked 'A' could be accommodation for flak troops manning a larger battery area out of shot to the east. No.s 24 and 26 seem to be slit trenches defending the weapons pit. I take the light toned rectangle at No. 24 to be cut vegetation to provide a field-of-fire northwards. I wonder what the L shaped 'B' object is attached to the eastern gable of the barracks? Perhaps a covered air raid shelter? The wall seen extending past field corner 'C' on the D115 appears to be now partly demolished as per the GE 'street view' below: Just some observations. Regards, Pat
With respect to #23 on the list of objects to identify, if you pull up frame 1001 you will find this item at the very top of the picture. Zoom down all the way and the object will be shown much more clearly. Charles
Hi Pat and Charles, I am pretty certain with the number of ties between the ground video and aerial photo, that we had found a match with the orchard wreck. As random as a glider wreck would be, too much seems to match in my opinion. Then with the front of the horsa likely cut away, it does make for a good match for what we would be looking for in the Charles Bass Horsa wreck. a combination of a wreck into a tree, and a 3 hour job to remove a jeep and trailer. Regarding # 23, I think it may be a complete wreckage with a wing laying over the top of it. It just seems like too much for just a wing. Initially I thought it was the wreckage seen in the critical past footage with the GI looking into it with his hands behind his back. It would need more studying, but i'm not sure. Also about points # 24 and #26, they are almost completely connected by a finer zig zag trench line. Also in my opinion, I think "A" is a cattle barn used as a barracks, and the L shaped "B" location actually protects some type of (farm or military) vehicle. John
The orchard Horsa is interesting. Zooming the best ground level shot appears to show rough edges near the middle fuselage invasion stripe - consistent with using an axe. That access could equally be to rescue injured passengers or equipment (including handcarts). The damage forward of the leading edge of the wing likely is more than crash damage. To me the forward fuselage section appears to be detached - and rotated a bit counterclockwise (looking forward in plan view). For a dimensional reference point - the distance from the front edge of the rear plane to the trailing edge of the flap is very nearly the same as the distance from the leading edge of the wing to the tip of the cabin, so length doesn't bother me that much considering our limited perspective. So, my guess is they first tried chopping around the rear door. When that didn't get them the access they needed, they chopped off the forward section just ahead of the wings, then pulled it slightly forward and rotated it counterclockwise. The hard part to chopping involves the metal rods called longerons that act like very long bolts to compress the several fuselage sections together. No dimensions on the drawings, but they look maybe an inch or more in diameter. Anybody think to bring along any white phosphorus grenades to melt them? That was only a partial solution. As I understand it, vehicles were backed in to allow quick unloading after landing (might also have been a matter of weight and balance - unloaded center of gravity was just ahead of trailing edge of wing). Backing out a jeep/trailer or jeep/gun from a badly damaged glider would have had to be a last resort. Loaded trailers on Keokuk Chalk #13 weighed in at over 1800 lbs. each. But, according to LTC Bertsch, there were around 200 men in the area - so muscle power and desperate need could have wrestled a trailer or gun out the front. A jeep, of course, was powered and steerable, so just a matter of clearing a path. A final note: to me Pat's tail plane strut looks maybe more like an apple tree that got broken (but not severed) in two places - a foot or so above the ground and just below the canopy (the leafy kind). The strut is somewhere around 6-7' long; my 'young' apple tree looks longer than that. Here's a link to a pretty good look at the Horsa tail assembly (on the free part of fold3.com): http://www.fold3.com/image/38274375/
Hello there, Ref: the "fortified corner", if it's any help that farm was apparently used by the Germans as a dump/depot. The horse drawn wagons ambushed in the second episode of Band of Brothers were coming from/going to (depending on who you talk to) that farm. I reckon John's right, the L-shape is a revetment of some sort for a vehicle. Cheers, Sean
Thanks Sean, I recall Dale Booth pointing out the T junction where this ambush took place on one of the Battlebus tours some years ago. Nowhere near a railway bridge In an effort to understand the parking of the gliders on the A6 ALG, I stitched together some stills from the Critical Past footage here. There are two separate panning sequences shown, the first one I have dubbed 'Spook' from the name on the nose of Horsa No. 14Dot. Here is a downsized version: The second panning sequence is shown below, dubbed 'Power Pole': The full size TIF files are uploaded onto my ADrive cloud if anyone wants them for a detailed examination: Spook (15.1MBs) Power Pole (11.9MBs) I am trying to place these two sequences in a 'bone yard' to the immediate east of the La Londe Farm Avenue. Not sure I have the correct location and sortie 4108 has no good cover of this field. There is shot of the left most Horsa wreck in the 'Power Pole' sequence on a different piece of footage which showed it as having another 'dot' number. IIRC, that footage showed trees being blown down with explosives, probably to expand the outer area of the ALG. Anyone know where this footage is located? I also wondered if the single frame below was the scene behind the AA position in the 'Spook' sequence but I don't think it is: Comments and corrections welcomed and appreciated. Regards, Pat