Guys, This Horsa wreck is captured in the footage shot from the spotter plane orbiting the La Londe A6 ALG as seen in the BP Film No. 1981.12 here. Can anyone find the location? I have a strong sense that the orbit is not very wide of the ALG and the aircraft appears to be flying in a clockwise direction. While over the Horsa, it also appears to be banking to starboard, so the location is probably 'inside' the orbit. Note also that there are two hedgerows in shot, one perpendicular to the other, so the location must be close to a field corner. I cannot get this Horsa to match any of the of the wrecks in the big field north of the ALG, but perhaps I am missing something. Wherever it is, I'll put money on that it's on the north side of the D17. It may not be relevant to Charles quest here, but it would still be useful to nail down the location. Anyone any ideas? Thanks, Pat
Hi all, It's been a while, but I have recently come upon another batch of information that I am presently going over slowly. What I have received, after over a year of trying, is a complete copy of my father's VA Claim file. (the current name for this agency is the Dept. of Veterans Affairs). A good while ago, it was suggested to me by Geoff Gentilini of Golden Arrow Military Research, that I attempt to secure that file as it might possibly contain info. that would be helpful to me. He also suggested that I enlist the help of my Representative or Senator, as the VA was, in his experience, very difficult to deal with. So naturally, I went off on my own to try to get the record. After much frustration and blind alleys, I did what I should have done in the first place. I contacted one of my U.S. Senators and asked if he could help. It took him a good while, but he stuck with it and was eventually successful in providing me with a copy of the file. From what I gathered through correspondence, due to the age of the file, just locating it was an issue. Ultimately it was located at NARA Southwest Region Federal Records Center, Ft. Worth, TX, to which it was transferred in 1974. The record includes 404 pages. An initial hurried run-through of the VA file indicates that it was opened in 1945, shortly after my father's discharge, and that most of the records are medical in nature. They chronicle a lengthy period of surgeries, tests, evaluations, etc. Interesting, but not exactly what I need. Hopefully, in going through this record more carefully, something helpful to locating the crash landing site will turn up. I did notice a couple of documents that refered to being treated at an Aid Station. The dates seem to tie into another document shown earlier in this thread. See the excerpt form the first document below which was included in the VA file: This is part of a form that had to be completed in my father's application for pension or disability payments. The final page of the form is signed and dated Nov. 15, 1945. Question 33 at the bottom of the above page asks for identification of locations or facilities where he received treatment while in the Service. The first line of the response is "Bn Aid Sta. 82 Airborne Div.Arty. 6 June 1944 - 9 June 1944..." The problem is, of course, that I don't know where this aid station was during the period cited. However, the dates do fit within the time frame stated by my father, during which he received medical attention while in Normandy, as shown in the document dated 26 Aug., 1946, presented in Post #78 on page 8 above, an excerpt of which follows: The other item from the VA file follows: This is an excerpt taken from a document prepared 17 July, 1944, when my father was admitted to Foster Gen. Hosp. in Mississippi where he would stay about 10 days. Again we see the reference to being treated at an aid station. I would assume this report is referring to the same aid station as mentioned in the other VA file document above. That's it for now. I need to spend some time going through the VA file slowly. It's a long shot, but hopefully there is some mention of location. Charles
Hi Charles, It might be no harm to have a look at the locations marked on the 307th Airborne Medical Company, 82nd Airborne map held by the U.S. Army Heritage and Education Center. The link is in the opening post of the 'Map - 307th Airborne Medical Company Operations' thread. I have a high resolution copy on my hard drive at home if needed. Regards, Pat
Thanks Pat, I will have a look at the map you mentioned. Seems like some time ago I was trying to dig into the activities of the 307 A/B Medical Co., since a couple of gliders in Elmira Serial 32 did carry 307th personnel. I don't recall what I found. Charles
Hi all, Been out a while for some back surgery, but am doing very well now. John, can you tell me whether or not you have an aerial photo on your glider landing map, of the glider shown in the ground shot below? If so, could you tell me where it is on the map. This picture was recently sold on Ebay, and is also shown on page 112 of Phillippe Esvelin's D-Day Gliders. In Phillippe's book, the image is in a section in which he discusses Mission Elmira. On the Ebay site on the back of the photo it is stated that the landing was somewhere in Normandy and that the parachute was a "supply parachute". I don't know who offered that information. Thanks, Charles
Hi Charles, I'm glad you are doing well from the back surgery. When I plotted the map, I looked at the NARA aerial photos that covered the Cotentin area and made a mark for each glider that could be identified on the aerials regardless of its condition. what would need to be done is a search of the NARA aerials to find a simular wreckage layout if it is even visable. If the area is known, it would be easier to locate. I will take a look at the NARA webite over the next few days to see if anything simular can be found. John
Hi John, Thanks for the quick response. I did not intend for you to spend a lot of time looking through NCAP images. I plan to do some of that myself over the next few days to see what, if anything, I can find. Then, I'm out of town for a week and will get back to it when I return. If you do run into something in the meantime that could be a match that would be great. Thanks again. Charles
Hi All, I have been side tracked from other work for this thread relating to the A-6 ALG by the Horsa wreck below. It's a common enough wreck in both still and film footage. The two stills below are both from the AP Archive Film BM44917-7: The photo below comes from p. 129 of Philippe Esvelin's 'D-Day Gliders': Philippe's caption dates this photo to the 10th June, so I presume the footage was shot on or after that date, as it shows a new hole in the side, which I presume was created to extract the jerry cans. The reason I post this Horsa here is that the footage of the wreck is sandwiched between a scene showing wire men stringing telephone cable in Sainte Mere Eglise... and... 4th ID men advancing towards the town westwards along the D15, only 1½ miles away at the hamlet of Baudienville: I have a feeling there is footage somewhere showing the three 82nd men at the wreck seen in Philippe's photo - anyone have a link? Anyone any idea as to location? Thanks, Pat
Hi Pat, I think I have something to consider here. Remember Neil's post of the New Normandy Horsa wreck I linked here: http://normandy.whitebeamimages.ie/forum/thread-440.html http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v464/jonesy1275/Crashed-Horsa-Chalk-number-_zpsnunm5ojd.jpg We identified the location of the Horsa, but what I want you to look at are the trees directly over the open front cargo door and two circular windows of Neil's Horsa. Then compare them with the trees in the background of the first photo of your Horsa wreck. I see the same fan shaped tree top in both photos. That may mean your Horsa is the wreck closest to the N13 that you once marked as the Otis Sampson Horsa, or the one you described as having a jeep on top of it at one point. I think the trees match, and the shape of the wreck matches as well! John
Hi John, Here is the wreck to which you refer: In Neil's photo... ...the trees behind the cockpit are the ones at the junction of that hedgerow with the N13 road...are those the trees that you are comparing to the those in my first photo? If so, the hedgerow behind the starboard wing in philippe Esvelin's photo would then need to be the N13 hedgerow; right? If this is your take, I don't see the trees matching. Also the extract from US30/4108 frame 1062 shows your candidate with the nose in correct alignment with the rest of the fuselage, but the glider's nose here shows a lot of misalignment to port?? However, if Gammon grenades were used to try to extract the jeep, that might certainly alter the alignment of the cockpit and nose BTW, readers please see the 'Otis Sampson & The Horsa Glider' thread for more on John's candidate. Thanks John, Pat
Hi Pat, I sent you a few marked up photos comparing the trees that maybe you can post. " ...the trees behind the cockpit are the ones at the junction of that hedgerow with the N13 road...are those the trees that you are comparing to the those in my first photo? If so, the hedgerow behind the starboard wing in philippe Esvelin's photo would then need to be the N13 hedgerow; right?" Correct ! The trees are the same, but because the photos are taken at Two different angles, the distance between them is greater. Neil's Horsa (chalk 31) is taken nearly perpendicular to the trees in the distance, which spaces them out more even for trees in the distance. While the photos taken from near the Horsa closer to the N13 is more angular to the trees, giving them the appearance of being closer together. I feel pretty confident about this Horsa location ! John
Hi John, I have to say it looks very good indeed! I can't see Neil's photo on my work PC this morning because its not on my server, but I still need to get my head around the trees - will check your mark-ups tonight. The object I have marked 'Jeep?' on the aerial extract I now think is a bit of the fuselage roof which is visible in the second still from the footage. As an off topic sidebar, I just noticed this farmhouse complex on Google Maps 'street view' when I was trying to get a look into the field from the present day N13. If I recall correctly, this looks a lot like the location of the photo showing the German PoWs under guard in the book 'Utah Beach: Sainte Mere Eglise'. Anyone have a copy to check? Thanks, Pat
Hi guys, I am enjoying the discussion above concerning the Horsa glider recently spotted by Pat in the AP Archive film. However, sometimes I can be pretty dense when it comes to following the dialogue, and want to be sure I understand just what we are trying to establish here. Simply put, are we leaning to the conclusion that the glider spotted by Pat in the AP film, the glider referred to in Esvelin's book and the glider in the photo found by Neil, are all one in the same aircraft, and that it is the glider shown in the zoomed in version of US30/4108 1062? Any clarification would be appreciated. Charles
Sorry for causing confusion Charles, No, Neil's glider is in the same field alright but it's not the one we are currently looking at. John has sent me marked up versions of the tree clusters which he sees common to both Neil's Horsa and our new 'Jerry Can' Horsa: John, I could not get my head around the wider gap between the cluster you marked E1-E3 and the cluster you marked 'A, B, Fan' in Neil's ground photo and the much narrower gap between the two clusters in the AP footage stills. It should be the other way round - until I noticed that there is a kick in the hedgerow exactly between the two tree clusters. See my mark ups on the extract from NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1062 flown on the 8th June. The two Horsas are also indicated thereon: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk I am now completely satisfied Well done John! Regards, Pat
Thanks Pat! Hi Charles, I hadn't forgotten about your search for the Horsa wreck with the parachute in the tree, and I did do a pretty extensive search mostly of Sortie US30/4108 on the NCAP site over that weekend of your post. I just didn't see any good matches for that extensive wreck. ... But I plan to keep trying. The parachute is interesting because not only could it have been from a paratrooper, some Waco gliders also had drag chutes that would be deployed to slow quicker upon landing. The parachute doesn't appear to have a camouflage pattern on it, so I wonder about it being used for a drag chute. John
Pat, Going back to your jerry can Horsa photos, In the photo with the 3 GI's around it, does there appear to be a chalk number on the fuselage where the landing gear are. It looks possibly like '18' to me. John
Hi all, Thanks so much Pat, for clarifying the situation. I didn't think we were looking at the same glider in all of the images being considered, but for some reason could not get into the flow of the conversation. Great work in locating those Horsas. John, I have also continued to look for an aerial of the "parachute" glider without success. I'm still trying, but am beginning to wonder if the image we have is that of a crashed Horsa which has been cleaned up, or rearranged, so to speak. It looks to be an odd arrangement of glider components for a crash site, as if someone had just pushed the parts together. Also, we don't see the tail section and a part of the fuselage seems to be missing. Maybe those components are just nearby but out of the picture as framed. Could it be that an aerial of this glider, if one exists, was taken before the ground photo, and thus would present a significantly different look? Anyway, I'll keep looking. Charles
Hi Charles, I think you and I are on the same page. There are things that just don't add up to this being a wreck. I note the cockpit has wings forward of that, but no obvious fuselage. The tail of a fuselage with an insignia but no vertical or horizontal stabilizers. It is all confusing. I suspect it may just be a debris pile. One thing of note. If that is a supply parachute in the tree, then it could be from the area of the A-6 ALG at La Londe. I don't personally know of other supply drops and there is video of the supply drop over A-6 that Pat might know where to be able to link to and view for further search. John
Hi John, I found a better resolution copy on the web and zoomed in: Confirmed; '18' it is I note from the glider listing for Serial 32 (Elmira) out of Membury, that the 18th glider is marked as 'destroyed', carrying a jeep, marked as 'unserviceable' and gun marked 'serviceable'. Of the five passengers, two are marked as 'evacuated'. Note though, as Patrick Elie has cautioned before, the order of listing may not always correspond to the 'chalk' number of the glider. It's interesting that the account given to Ellen Peters by E/505 PIR veteran John Perozzi relates that before he and Otis Sampson used explosives to try to get the jeep out of the glider, they removed wounded glidermen from the wreck. No mention of a gun though. See the 'Otis Sampson & The Horsa Glider' thread for more on this incident. Regards, Pat
Hi Guys, The BP film showing the re-supply drop on the A-6 ALG is here. The aircraft are flying east to west as they drop their loads. Regards, Pat