Guys, Do you recall the Horsa caught by the BP Film 1981.12 footage shot from the spotter plane orbiting the A-6 strip which I referred to in post #119, page 12 of this thread? Below is still #197 showing this Horsa, possibly marked '47' in Elmira style script: Does anyone see a resemblance to the Horsa caught in the re-supply footage in BP Film 1965.05 - see still #71: I found a vertical view in NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1007 flown on the 8th June - see zoomed extract below: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk Very much less obvious in the extract below from NCAP_ACIU_US7GR_1857_8010, but the overview seen here gives a better understanding of where we are - yellow arrow indicates: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk What do you guys think? Thanks, Pat
Hi Pat, I would agree with you. The first two aerial photos from British Pathe show a good comparison of two slghtly taller trees at about 8 O'clock from the Horsa's ground orientation. I would say you nailed down another one! John
Hi John, What do you make of the number? '47' with no underscore tick mark is my best guess. The 'tail' at the bottom left of numeral 4 might be a crack in the fuselage - very like the '18' in your 'Jerry Can' wreck. Regards, Pat
John, I think this extract from still #198 might be the sharpest of all: Can't be sure of the '4', but the second digit is now a much better '7'. Regards, Pat
No under or over score which means it is not a 435th or 438th TCG Horsa. This could be a 436th TCG Horsa who had the chalk numbers around there and very boldy painted. See the Hoatson Horsa and one other Horsa at la Londe to see what I mean. I've been toying with the idea of starting a thread regarding trying to identify the Troop Carrier Groups from their chalk numbers. Maybe it's time to do it.
Hi all, Pat and John, That is really excellent work on the Horsa that may very well be chalk #47. Now we have an image of that glider that is far superior to the NCAP one which doesn't give a lot of detail. Charles
Hi Pat, I may have just stumbled across who was on board your chalk 47 Horsa while doing research on the 307th AEB in another thread. As part of Serial 32 of Elmira, this Horsa carried members of the 307th AEB and on board was Major Edwin A. Bedell and Battalion Headquarters. The Loading Manifest: Major Edwin A. Bedell Capt John D. Kirkwood Capt Robert K. Williams T/Sgt Floyd W. Lott Pfc Carmelo F. Tine Sgt Dennie W. Clemson Cpl Frank W. Clemson Pfc Francis B. O'Brien Pvt Gaston P. Viette Pfc James T. Charpell Pvt Seymore (NMI) Jackowitz Pfc Coda C. Showa (it could be Shows ) Pfc Cicero (NMI) McBloom (it could be McBroom ) What confirms this is a Glider Report by Major Bedell that indicated: Horsa Chalk 47 . Permanent Glider No DP 379 Where landed Coord. 356974 .< when plotted, this is your location Distnce and direction from the planned LZ: 3500 yds to the north of planned LZ. Length and width in yards of the field in which glider landed: 300 by 150. Number of gliders in field: One. How many more could have landed: None (Due to post obstacles). General description of landing area, including obstacles: First, hit trees 40 ft high, then post anti-landing obstacles, 50 ft centers bothways (square pattern of posts 10 to 15 inches round, 5 ft in ground, 15 ft above ground) and pasture Enemy action encountered upon landing: AA, MG fire prior to landing. MG and rifle fire cover landing area. Adjacent areas being shelled. Speed at touching down: 50 mph. Height at which glider was cut loose: 500 ft. E. A. Bedell, Major. I will forward the document images to you for posting! John
Thanks John, Great find indeed! Will post your docs when I get home. If only every senior officer on the gliders had produced a report like this Regards, Pat
Hi All, I have converted John's new found load manifest and report on Chalk 47, Serial 32, Mission 'Elmira' and embedded below: <iframe seamless="seamless" src="https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://www.normandy.whitebeamimages.ie/gliders/elmira/serial_32_membury/chalk_47/report_horsa_chalk_47_serial_32_elmira_membury.pdf" width="95%" height="450px"></iframe> I see from the Horsa Serial 32 table below that although the original British serial numbers are missing from the listing, only one carried members of the 307th Airborne Engineer Battalion, so 'DP 379' must be the glider shaded red: Thanks again John for this great find. Regards, Pat
A nice conclusion to identifying Chalk number 47, Pat and John; no doubt that the crashed glider is the one that carried 307th A/B Engineer personnel in Serial 32. For my education, can someone clarify two things: The glider number is shown to be DP 379. I am not familiar with this type of number. Were they actually applied to the Horsa gliders? If so, where on the glider were they applied and are they visible? Also, looking at the flight chart, I had expected to see the subject glider in 47th place on the list. What I find is that it is in 45th place, counting the two CG4As in Serial 32 as numbers 1 and 2, and then continuing the count down to the 307 A/B ENGR Horsa, (basically considering the first Horsa to be number 3). Could a couple of gliders happen to have been out of place on the take-off? Thanks, Charles
Hi Charles, If you are looking at the chart for Serial 32, look on that same chart at serial 31. Under Serial 31 you will see a column for tail number indicated with two letters and 3 digits. These were serial numbers designated to the Horsa gliders and they were located on the rear of the fuselage just forward of the horizontal stabilizers and were about 8 inches tall. Often they were painted over when the invasion stripes were applied. If you have the book "D-Day Gliders" by Philippe Esvelin and published by Heimdal, there is a good example in the top photo of page 125, marked (LJ 114). If not, maybe Pat can post a photo. John
Hi Charles, Note the broken white centre ring on the fuselage here and here. This is the location of the British manufacturer's serial number in the format AA NNN (example 'HG 860'). While the above two photo links show careful avoidance by the ground crews applying the invasion stripes, I have seen examples where such care was not used and the serial number was painted over. Regards, Pat
John and Pat, Thanks for the explanation of the Horsa glider numbers, couldn't have been more clear. I checked out page 125 of "D-Day Gliders" and can see just what you describe. John, you referred me to the glider chart for Serial 31. I don't have that chart. So, let me take this opportunity to ask how I might obtain a copy of the charts for Serials 30, 31 and 33 of the Elmira Mission. Quite a while back Don provided me with the Serial 32 Chart, which has been helpful to me. Thanks, Charles
Hello all, I was looking through the Hoatson Horsa Wreck thread, specifically at the very first post on that site by Pat, in which an image of the Hoatson glider, as presented on pg. 119 of Philippe Esvelin's D-Day Gliders, is shown. It looked to me like there may be a marking of some sort below the number 12. Following is that image: While the marking is not particularly clear, or perhaps not showing fully, something is there. In post #34 of the final page of the Hoatson Horsa thread, Pat addressed the value of looking at the British Movietone footage version held by AP, of very similar footage held by British Pathe. As noted, sometimes there may be found additional footage that could be useful. The footage noted in that posting was identified as 'Consolidating in Normandy - NO SOUND". In reviewing that footage, particularly the part which shows the Hoatson glider rolled towards its port side, with the chalk #12 clearly shown, we get a considerably better view of the spot under the chalk number. Below is a screenshot of a part of that footage: The timeframe on the footage that shows this view runs from 4:06 to about 4:10, and is pretty consistent throughout that segment. I don't know if this marking is a "dot" as has been identified on several other gliders, but it might well be. If so, it could tie into the 436th TCG, and since Hoatson was with the 82nd TCS, that squadron as well. The footage can be accessed here: All thoughts on this will be appreciated. As a somewhat tangential issue, I have tried to link the Hoatson chalk number 12 to the Serial 32 landing schedule. If we consider the numbering to begin with the Horsas, and count down to the 12th Horsa glider on the list, the information on the listing corresponds with the load information given, by a glider pilot I presume, as contained in the June '44 History of the 82nd TCS. Therein, it is stated that the glider carried 14 men and that it crashed into trees and telephone poles 1/-1/4 miles NE of SME. It was noted that there were no injuries on landing, which ties into the landing report indicating no personnel evacuated. No indication of either Jeep or Trailer carried. While this seems to work with Hoatson, and perhaps with what may be my father's glider, there are a good number of discrepencies between the loads reported by pilots as stated in the June '44 History report, and the information shown on the landing chart with, respect to many of the 1st 12 Horsa gliders on that listing. A bit confusing to me. As for the chalk numbering system, I note that the numbering began with the Horsas in the case of Serial 30, with the CG4As in the case of Serial 31, maybe with the Horsas in the case of Serial 32 and with the Horsas in the case of Serial 33. All for right now. Charles