Elmira Horsa Glider

Discussion in 'Troop Carrier & Glider' started by ddayHorsa, Jan 4, 2014.

  1. patelie

    patelie Active Member
    Researcher

    Serial #31 is the only formation where first chalk numbers and first ones to take off were CG-4A.

    BUT remember one thing... Just after take off, during the formation of the serial and during the flight to Normandy...... The Horsas were always the first, including serial #31
     
  2. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi All,

    I am sure the Horsas first in the LZ had to do with their overall size and drag on a C-47 and their fuel. It seems very logical that the C-47 had to expend more fuel towing a Horsa than a Waco.

    John
     
  3. ddayHorsa

    ddayHorsa Active Member
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    Dec 20, 2013
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    Thanks Patrick, for the info. It will help in my continued efforts to reconcile the load and landing information provided by glider pilots, with the data listed in the landing table for the 82nd TCS Horsa Gliders of Serial 32.

    John, I certainly agree with you that towing a loaded Horsa would yield much less fuel economy than we would expect from towing the CG4A. Good to know that all tugs were provided with enough fuel to get back to home base!

    Charles
     
  4. patelie

    patelie Active Member
    Researcher

    I came on this old post about Horsa glider DP379
    You are saying it's chalk #47 because bedell write this chalk in his report... Can you explain me why it's written chalk #43 on the two pages of the loading manifest?
    Which information is better to believe in? two pages of loading manifest or one page of report?
     
  5. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi Patrick,

    We called it chalk 47 based on the best photo available, that you can see in post #142 of this thread and a few photos just before it. Please take a look at the photo.

    It may very well be chalk 43, but in the photo it looks like a 47.

    John
     
  6. patelie

    patelie Active Member
    Researcher

    No No John. I don't speak of the photograph.. I speak only of the three pages of the loading manifest and report.
    On two pages the glider is chalked #43 and on the last one #47
    It's there I ask which information believe.. and it's important to build a formation.. Wolf (the C-47 pilot) DP379 and Stephens (glider pilot) were #43 or #47???
    That is the question :D :D
     
  7. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Patrick,

    I wish I knew the answer...
    He signed a manifest for chalk 43, but then filed a landing report as chalk 47 afterwards.
    I noticed on the the first one, he bumped or scratched someone off chalk 43 and I wonder if he later changed to a different flight himself right before takeoff.
    Was it just a mistake?
    Going back to the chalk number in the video are we not seeing the entire number? and is it a 3 with a different writing style that has a flat part on top?

    Again, I wish I knew the answer
    John
     
  8. patelie

    patelie Active Member
    Researcher

    The change was made before d-day because Lt. Col. Palmer jumped from chalk #40 in serial #21 instead of being in the glider.
     
  9. ddayHorsa

    ddayHorsa Active Member
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    Dec 20, 2013
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    #169 ddayHorsa, Jan 13, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
    Hi all,

    A couple of weeks ago Dave provided me with a link to a pdf that he discovered via a Google search. The pdf contains information on Mission Elmira, including copies of diary writings of Lt. Robert C. Casey, who was a glider pilot with the 436th TCG / 82nd TCS. Also included are remembrances of other glider pilots who participated in D-Day glider activities. With regard to Casey, it was noted that Philippe Esvelin's book, D-Day Gliders, contains several paragraphs and a photo of him on ppg 114-115. Casey flew the Galveston mission. In Casey's diary writings of June 11, 1944, he mentioned the names of 4 glider pilots from the 82nd TCS who were killed in the Emira mission, along with the names of several pilots who were injured, including that of my father.

    What caught my attention while going through the record was the following photograph of several C-47s and Horsa gliders:


    C47 and Horsas at Membury.jpg



    Has anyone seen this image?

    Ok, not a great image; too dark for sure. However, since we rarely seem to find photographs of Serial 32 gliders or tugs at Membury, this is at least worth working with a bit. While we can't see any markings on the first C-47 in the center of the image, the next two on the right clearly show the 3D code for the 82nd TCS.

    Later on, I edited this post to present a much more lighted image:


    C47 and Horsas at Membury lightened.png

    Finally, for now, is an image of certain writing that followed immediately below the photograph:


    C47 and Horsas with caption.png C47 and Horsas at Membury.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Dave Frederick

    Dave Frederick Active Member
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    Nov 20, 2016
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    Charles,

    This is terrific information. The NASM in DC is one of my favorite places to go when I am up that way. Now I will make it a point to check out the archives.

    Thank you for posting this. Hope to hear more!

    Be Well
    Dave
     
  11. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    I'd love to see a high resolution copy of that photo. Is the tail letter a H or a M?
     
  12. marketc47

    marketc47 Active Member
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    Feb 15, 2013
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    I think I have a good scan of that photo. Believe it is also in Wolfe's book ' Green Light'.
    [hr]
    And I am not sure if it is an official USAF photo.

    Hope computer/internet problem to be solved today.
     
  13. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    Wiltshire, UK
    I think the photo you're referring to in Green Light is on p.99 of the softback book. It's slightly different to the one above.
     
  14. ddayHorsa

    ddayHorsa Active Member
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    Dec 20, 2013
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    Yes Dave, the NASM is a fine museum. It's been a good while since I've been there. It would be nice if you located the photo among their records. If it is not there, perhaps others of interest might be.

    Good question Neil. The lettering on the tail just isn't sharp enough for me to make that call.

    Hans, I didn't see the photo in 'Green Light', but maybe I missed it. There is a photo on pg 289 of an 82nd TCS C-47, (3D) which was damage when Jim Ackerman's 81st TCS plane (U5) ran into it while landing at Membury, according to the caption. If you do have a good scan of the photo posted above, that would be great.

    Charles
     
  15. marketc47

    marketc47 Active Member
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    Feb 15, 2013
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    Neil, I think the above photo is a crop from the one on page 99.
     
  16. patelie

    patelie Active Member
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    First C-47 in the center is a 80th TCS aircraft, chalk #1 and flown by Williams. Following aicraft are from 82nd TCS
     
  17. ddayHorsa

    ddayHorsa Active Member
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    Dec 20, 2013
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    Excellent observation Patrick, thanks. As stated in the June 1944 History of the 82nd TCS,:

    "On the night of the 6th, D-Day, this squadron flew in twelve Horsa gliders and furnished twelve tug planes. The take-off was at 2037 with Lt. Col. Adriel N. Williams leading the 82nd and the Group."


    Charles
     
  18. marketc47

    marketc47 Active Member
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    Feb 15, 2013
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    I am pretty sure the 80th TCS A/C has tail letter K.

    Now I need to figure out (again) how to get a photo into a post here :)
     
  19. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    You could do what I do, until I learn, which is send it to Pat and ask him to add the photo :)

    John
     
  20. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Co. Kilkenny, Ireland
    Hi Guys,

    I thought I was done with images tonight ;)

    Hans, here is the downsized version:
    [​IMG]

    The full sized original is here (573KBs).

    No doubt in my mind; definitively a 'K' :angel:

    Regards,

    Pat
     

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