Thanks John, I cannot see it here at work because of restricted web access. Does it contain a map overlay? Poix-de-Picardie's Wiki page has this: So, its the Department name 'Somme' which inadvertently crept into the IDPF. Regards, Pat
Gentlemen On cieldegloire.com in the text about Flight Officer Decker google translate gives us "The L.Col Tukey led the second mission of the day that starts at 7 am 13. Touched by Flak up to Boulogne, Tukey must turn around. The remaining pilots then destroy several ground targets while the 361st Fighter Squadron loses the F / O Edmund L Decker , hit by gunfire from the ground while the ground near grapeshot Bouconvillers. As for Lt. Ray Engle, it disappears in the area of Abbeville after indicating radio that his fuel level was low. During the 5th release of the day, the Group loses two additional drivers. Lt. James B Smith parachutes east of Amiens after being struck in combat with Me 109. He managed to evade capture and regain Britain in August. Lt. Lee will share less fortunate. Hit by gunfire from the ground while grapeshot ground targets, it crashes near Montdidier. regards Allan [hr] Hi John Good detective work - but then again, we expect that regards Allan
Hi All, Lt Engle also has a brief MACR on file on fold3 as MACR 5588. The overlay is the worst of the three though.
This may or may not help, but here's a French account from a newspaper article written last year. http://www.lereveildeneufchatel.fr/2014/06/07/il-se-rend-sur-la-tombe-du-pilote-davion-qui-sest-ecrase-sous-ses-yeux/ The location here is Brequigny which is near St. Saen. The topic was revisited in an article this May, but in all my digging around, I've lost track of the link. Audrey and Mrs. Lauck aren't in charge of their own itinerary, so I'm not sure if they'll be able to head to any of these villages. They may post here, too, but right now they're in classes in DC. Thank you! Kris
Hi Kris, A very interesting article indeed! I ran it through Google Translate and hopefully I have the right understanding. The witness to the crash was Paul Monfray who tells that the aircraft was seen to hit overhead power lines during the attack on a German convoy. He and two others had been detailed to dig trenches for the Germans that morning and had to take cover as the attack went in. The article goes on to say that local research finally established the dead pilot as F/O Edmund Decker and that he had been initially buried in 'Champigny la Futelaye near Saint Andre de l'Eure'. I had a quick look at IGN cover flown in 1947 just now and there does appear to be a circular patch near the hamlet of Brequigny. As per our policy of not disclosing crash sites on the public Forum, I will put up a screenshot of this area in the closed Green Room tonight. It should be said that the patch may just be a mark on the master print or the negative. Despite this, I think we are now at a point where a NCAP search is feasible. I don't have access to the IDPF just now, but I wonder if the burial location at Champigny la Futelaye mentioned in the article might actually be the second of the three burials. There is a German military cemetery near this village today, so it may well have be a designated military cemetery in 1945. Paul Monfray's account goes on to state that four German were killed in the attack and one truck was set on fire. Regards, Pat
Thanks Kris, and well done for the prompt work with the translation Pat. So it would appear not to be a stall turn that caused the fatal crash but hitting the power lines, and who can disagree with an actual witness on the ground. Now of course we have the matter of the burial place still to resolve. regards Allan
Allan, I will not disagree with what the witness saw, but I would disagree with what might be the cause of the crash. We just don't know how much of the straffing run the witness saw. A longer interview of the witness would be helpful. I am not sure that a plane would be straffing at a height of about 20 to 25 feet directly above a roadway (although it is plausable). We still have two pilot witnesses to consider. One pilot even seeing streamers (condensation) coming off the P-47 wing tips during the bank. That makes me think he had some altitude. In my opinion what might be the logical scenario is that a high speed stall from a left banking manuever happend which caused the plane to come down. At that point the now out of control P-47 took out the telephone line just before impacting the ground beyond the road. In any case we may never know exactly what happend and I guess we can't rule out anti aircraft activities either. John
Thanks for your further thoughts on the crash John - I have no idea as to whether the interview with Paul Monfray is recent, in which case he could, perhaps, be questioned further, or whether it is an interview culled from archives, in which case we will never know. regards Allan
Hi All, What do you think of this proposed NCAP search area for the location cited in the IDPF - "3 km west of Maucomble and 12 Km SW of Neufchatelen" (which I take to be Neufchatel en Bray)?: As you can see there is nothing in the NCAP database currently digitised for the red rectangle, so I'll proceed to order a paid manual search by NCAP staff based on this search box which is all of the B&W zoomed screenshot below: Any cover within the entirety of the screenshot would be of interest, but I would be particularly keen to see any frames in the colour rectangle centred on the hamlet of Breguigny following the account given by eye witness Paul Monfray and the light toned patch seen in the 1947 IGN cover. Let me know what you think before I submit the search tomorrow. In order to keep the cost reasonable, I am going to give them instructions to limit search time to one hour. In this respect I propose a date window of 8th - 30th June 1944, which should be achievable in that time. Let me know if you think the search box should be adjusted. Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, I think I would expand the box to more of a square shape and expand to to just below Maucomble and left to include the area just right of Saint Saens. I would make the right edge of the box under Maucomble. The French eye witness had mentioned in the article that the plane hit the power line and went 600 meters down an enbankment and I just didnt see many embankments under the Maucomble area, but saw more to the left. Did you have any luck with the IGN 1947 aerials you mentioned earlier? John
Thanks John, I'll expand the inner coloured box as you suggest, but the search will be over that box plus the entirety of the B&W screenshot. I normally tell them what the subject of the search is, as so doing seems to help speed up the task. The coloured inner box is just to focus minds but any frames found in the B&W will be included in the search result - provided of course they are found within the one hour time limit! Below is an IGN map with contours centred on Brequigny. There seems to be plenty of opportunity for the aircraft to travel 600 meters downhill in several directions: I have uploaded the 1947 IGN cover to the ADrive cloud here (10.9MB JPG). The password to download it is in a PM to Allan, Kris and yourself. Other readers with 'Researcher' status can have it also - just send me a PM. The bright patch circled red might or might not be the crash site. There is no sign of it in 1952 cover or any indication that crop growth has been stunted in any subsequent years' sorties. To be treated as weak Regards, Pat
Hello Pat I am constantly getting ".....download was interrupted", then I hit "Resume" and go round in a loop again, and again - so will leave until later this evening. regards Allan
Hi Allan, My internet connection is via a wireless dongle and it's very slow during high pressure periods. I see you have a load of these to your south at the moment (today's Atlantic chart), so if your web access is via a wireless device, that is probably causing your download to timeout. It's not a huge file - 10.9MBs, so that should not be the issue. Kris has given me permission to share the IDPF with anyone who is interested in reading it. That file is a large PDF (68.2MBs) and can be downloaded from this link. I would ask that those of you who do read it would take a few minutes to post your thoughts here. Thanks, Pat
Hello Pat Thanks for the information about the weather situation and Wi-Fi. I have finally managed to download it about 15 minutes ago, after multiple attempts at various times today. After years of using a perfectly good Ethernet set up with my Netgear router/BT home-hub(s) about a 15 months ago, in the interests of "progress" I updated my BT Home Hub to version 5, and it had to be moved in the house for other services, and then I suddenly came to be using first a BT Wi-Fi Home hotspot 500 kit which didn't operate when the green light was showing, but as soon as the red light came on service was perfect (work that one out!! :s ) I then changed to the BT Dual-band Wi-Fi dongle 600, and service can be patchy (as per the last few days), but is better than using my home wiring circuit. Anyway, long story short, I cannot come to any firm conclusions on the photo - but thanks for sharing. Kris - thanks for granting us permission to read the IDPF which is my next port of call. regards to all Allan
Hello All I put a request on to two of the best forums of their type "Twelve O'clock High" and "RAF Commands" for information on F/O Edmund L Deckers RCAF service, and, as hoped, they have both come up trumps. See http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?p=203162&posted=1#post203162 and http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?18954-US-citizen-in-the-RCAF-later-Flight-Officer-E-L-Decker-USAAF-KIA-8-June-1944 Kris - if you are successful in gaining the RCAF data I would be grateful if you can fill in the gaps for the rest of us - I wish you all the best, this brave airman deserves his full story being told, especially as in this instance he left a still neutral country to join in a fight that wasn't his at the time. My thoughts on the IDPF - what a comprehensive set of documents, and I can only respect their thoroughness in its completion, and also what a workload as a similar thing was done for all US forces deaths. regards Allan
Allan, Sorry for the delay in replying. We just returned from picking Audrey up from her trip and taking a family vacation. Even with the trip over, the research continues. Thank you so much for the links! We've printed off the form and have it ready to send. If anyone finds any additional information, she still needs it. And of course she'll share everything she finds on the forum. One fun note, on the way home from the coast we visited the Tennessee Air Museum in Sevierville, TN. They own two p47 Thunderbolts that are still flown in airshows. The pilot/owner gave Audrey a tour of a plane and then put her in the cockpit to get a feel for what it would have been like for F/O Decker! According to the docent on duty, this isn't an everyday occurrence! The support and help she's received from all of you gentlemen is very much appreciated! We'll keep you posted! Kris
Hello Kris No need to apologise for any delay in responding, and I am very pleased that matters seem to be proceeding speedily in the right direction. What fantastic generosity in the owner giving Audrey not only a tour of his P47, but a cockpit visit as well, her research is obviously reaching out and affecting others. I look forward to anything further that you can trace on the life story of Flight Officer Edmund L Decker. regards Allan
Hi Kris, We are awaiting the results of the NCAP search for any reconnaissance cover in their database flown over the Saint Saens area during the period 8th - 30th June 1944. Without disclosing it here, has Audrey learned anything further on the location of the crash site while in Normandy? Thanks, Pat
Pat, She hasn't, but their French guide said he would look into it. I believe she needs to follow up by providing links to the French articles. I believe he does research for the US DOD. I'll keep you in the loop as that progresses. Anything you learn is very much appreciated!! Thank you! Kris