Hi Patrick, That is a great point! If Lt Thomas Moore was chalk #13 and in the first glider, and since they flew over in an echelon of 4 wide and likely released at the same, we might be looking at chalk 13, 14, 15, 16, in a very well coordinated group landing. That might also help to explain the chalk 16 Edna Horsa of the group. John
Did someone say chalk 13? :angel: I was looking for the B/W ground footage in Tyler Alberts DVDs just now and found it in the '101st US Airborne Division / Invasion of Normandy' disk (old version). However, I also noticed that we may have another Horsa, possible marked '13' from the south west corner of the field: The pond embankment and the tail of this Horsa is obscuring the view to 'Edna' and the other members of the cluster are out of shot to the right. My tree 'finger prints' match well as far as I can see: I have indicated the direction of view with the blue arrow on the extract from sortie US7GR_1857, frame 4052 below: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk I am currently working on this screenshot in Photoshop, but its not mesmerizing into a clear '13' very well. Despite this, I am pretty sure I can make out a digit '3' and possibly '13' on the footage. IIRC, there is a high resolution print of this glider somewhere and possibly a better version of the footage somewhere else (PhotosNormandie YouTube Channel perhaps?). Does anyone know where either is located? Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, Nice find! and I agree with your location too! It sure does look like a 13, but it seems a little odd that there is so much space between the numbers. Also didn't we have an image somewhere of a Horsa lightly marked #18 just south and east of this pond field? I recall one kind of bogged down and leaning slightly with a small nick in the wing... Regarding the Tyler Alberts DVD, is there anything worth noting or familiar on the DVD either before or after this horsa appears that might also help us find the video somewhere? (As long as this part wasn't spliced into it randomly) John
Hi John, Here is my best effort at Photoshoping the image: I concur; a widely spaced '13' The other Horsa you are referring to is one field to the SE and covered in a dedicated thread of its own...which I am looking for now. Regards, Pat
Thank you Patelie for your clarification on this. Yes, I suspect Mr. Randolph meant he was # 1 for the 80th. That is more information to go on.. I apreciate your help. Be Well Dave
John, Not in a dedicated thread as I thought, but rather commencing at post #23, page 3 of Don's 'Mission Keokuk Landing Locations – A Comprehensive Attempt' thread. I have been searching the PhotosNormandie YouTube Channel with various search key words, but no success so far. Regards, Pat
Pat, John, All This is very interesting. Does it look to be some "ramp" extending from the tail area? Tom said they were carrying a 75 howitzer (it may have been for the 319th or 320th FAB). Would this be the means to unload the 75? Thank you Be Well Dave
Hi Dave, Yes, Horsa gliders were unloaded by removing the tail and rolling out the jeep, trailer, or gun, down two small aluminum ramps to get them out. The horsa glider did not have a nose section that would lift up like the smaller American Waco gliders did in order to get the jeep, trailer, or gun, out from them. Pat, looking back at the Keokuk thread now, we came up with a chalk #12 (not 18) near the canopy glass in the same location as the Edna 16. I like the reliability of Tipton Randolph's personal notes on his photo. He even notes the landing order of these 4 horsa's next his color coded list, and explains the tail in front of a horsa. That said, I don't know what to make of the other horsa #13 yet. Maybe we don't have the chalks guessed correctly, or could the 13 horsa be from another serial? There is a scene in the color film of the tail of a horsa where the invasion stripes are not painted over where the serial number would be. I wonder if a frame could be enhanced enough to read anything. :/ John
The location of this glider (chalked 13?) doesn't match with the location of ford and moore given by Randolph... And it's better to believe in his information. like say john... another serial [hr] looking at the inverted photograph it seems to be a shadow on the right of the "I".. Could it be possible to be a Horsa chalked "D3"? in this case, less space between the D and the 3
Hi John, I find the various styles of numbering to be inconsistent, especially in big glider lifts like 'Elmira' where gliders are coming from different airfields. Looking through various bits of footage again last night, I also wondered if we might be over thinking the tick marks and letters used. A thought struck me that perhaps all these marks are indicating is that the glider is loaded and ready to be towed out onto the runway...but then I saw 'Elmira' footage of 82nd men standing beside Horsas with the 6 o'clock tick already applied. I do think we need to be careful in assuming that there are some Horsas with no airborne ('chalk') numbering at all. My guess would be that a lime wash was used in some cases instead of paint, as perhaps in the case here with 'Edna' and the new '13'. I'll have a go at the colour footage tonight. Regards, Pat
Hi Patrick, It could be a letter...I just cannot be sure without viewing a better version of the footage. BTW, I think there is another scene in Tyler's DVD which might match the glider to the immediate east of the new '13'. If correct, the camera guy simply turned to his right from the same spot he filmed '13' - unfortunately not a panning shot. The glider I have in mind is the one at lower right below: If anyone has the ground footage in Tyler's DVD, have a look and see if its a possible match. Thanks, Pat
Hi guys, I wouldn't spend too much time working on the color footage Pat, because none of the Horsa's from serial 32 even list the tail number... I almost feel bad suggesting it. Patrick, I see what you mean about a 'D' instead of a '1' Serial 36 lists some Horsa's designated as 'B' such as B-3 and B-13. B-13 doesn't seem to be a good match because it lists as being 9 miles from LZ-W. The other thing is that both of these gliders are also listed as "Destroyed". Do you think if the tail is blown off to remove equipment, and now not repairable, that they would classify it as destroyed? I have never seen a landing table of 101st AB gliders... is it possible they may have used a 'D' ? Dave, I think the information you shared with the group from Tipton Randolph is very valuable to researchers because it has opened up details that have been unknown for 72 years. I personally thank you for sharing it. John
Hi guys, While we may end up getting caught up in identifying Horsa's, one thing I would like us to do for Dave is try to create a timeline of what his father-in-law Lt. Thomas Moore may have experienced upon his landing, and give Dave a better understanding of Lt. Moore's time in France, until evacuation back to England. So maybe what we can also help discuss or address for him are: Where were the Germans? Did the gliders come down under fire? What was going on in this area at the time, and shortly after landing for the next few days? Where would the glider pilots gone from this point after landing? (Chateau Columbieres? Hiesville?) Were these glider pilots likely pressed into service upon landing? What was the destination for the guns of the 319th Field Artillery Bn, and where would they have gone ? We may have to speculate a bit, but if Dave was there in Normandy, what would we point out to him. Dave, one thing you asked in your first post was if the Horsa also carried a jeep. I think all the Horsa's that carried a gun, or trailer, also carried a jeep, but because of the load weight, they only carried in 5 personnel. John
John, It is incredible the kindness, helpful information and expertise shared from the people on the site. Thank you for your kind words. I hope I may add in some way, information that will open new doors to their research. Be Well Dave
Just one more John This screenshot is from Tyler's DVD footage and follows immediately after the possible new '13' Horsa scene: Note what I take to be a rubber dinghy at centre right. I would wonder if its visible below on the extract from frame 4052? Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk Less certain of this one...or at least it hangs with less certainty that the new (possible) '13' Horsa. What do you guys think? On a different tack, I looked up my copy of 'Utah Beach - Sainte Mere Eglise - Sainte Marie-du-Mont' by Georges Bernage & Dominique Francois as I recalled a somewhat confusing map on page 100 therein: The caption for the map links points 4, 5 and 6 to the General Pratt crash site. However these points are clearly referring to the Pond Field cluster! The turning arrow at '4' on the map is supposed to be indicating the turns made by Lieutenant-Colonel Mike Murphy, General Pratt's pilot before the crash of that Waco. I had puzzled over this arrow on the map for some time; its drawn with deliberation, but is clearly too small in scale to indicate the turns made by a Waco coming into land. Thanks to Dave's photo with Mr Randolph's notes thereon, I would now wonder if the arrow is indicating the 1½ turns of the Ford - Moore Horsa when it was hit by 'Edna'? If such be the case, then the authors of the book appear to have mixed up the Pratt crash with the Pond Field cluster, however; in my view, whoever gave them the turning arrow at '4' on the map, knew of the impact between the two Horsas in the Pond Field. Does that make sense? Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, Don't get me wrong, I love matching aerial and ground images !!! I think the book's author would have had no way of knowing about the glider being spun after another glider striking it. I just think the author got most of that illustration completely wrong... but that's probably because we weren't around to help
Could be just that John, but I still think its a big coincidence that the turning arrow is so close to the impact site of the two Horsas. What do you think of the rubber dinghy Horsa? Thanks, Pat
From Dave's second post: "On D Day +1, Mr Randolph was able to figure they were Northeast of a road between Les Forges and Ste Mere Eglise." If Randolph moved during the night, the Pond Field is plausible as the 82AB AAR shows another 319th glider landing a little east of Coquerie (similar latitude). However, if Randolph stayed put overnight (and the above location statement is accurate), then the Pond Field is precluded. The majority of the 319th in Elmira seems to have landed well north of the Pond Field between Baudienville and la Londe as has been well covered here. That is not necessarily a problem for the Pond Field location, for as we learned from Pat Elie's work and relied on by me in my Keokuk Big Dipper theory, each row of 4 Horsas was supposed to split into two pairs spaced 2000' feet apart to land. Add in the confusion from the attempt to change the LZ from 'W' to 'O' and there is plenty of opportunity for a southern landing spot. Pat, does the colored dot 82AB glider landing map show any candidates in the Pond Field area for Serial 32? I can't find my copy at the moment. No time right now to scan and post, but a photo showing a glider pilot escorting POWs through SMdM on June 7 or 8 appearing on p. 75 of Bando's 101st Airborne, The Screaming Eagles at Normandy, sure does favor Ensor. Perhaps coincidental, but both photos show this fellow(s) wearing an M7 bayonet scabbard. So, neither is armed with SMG or carbine and also not equipped with the longer M1905 bayonet. Pat Elie doesn't show any info for Serial 32. Pat, did you not request the Serial 32 reports from AFHRA or did they look and find none? If the former, it might be worth a try for someone. The Eisenhower Library shows a monthly history for the 319GFAB. NARA at College Park should have this one as well. This too might be worth a try.
Hi Don, I think we matched a number of PoWs in Mark's photo to footage showing the column going through Sainte Marie du Mont. IIRC, the footage and photo are unfortunately shot from the same side of the column on which the glider pilot guards are marching, so there is significant motion blur in the footage. Again, I think there is a better version of the footage in the PhotosNormandie collection. Will have a look. Regards, Pat