That's not what I mean Pat.* I mean adding a few more lines to your LOS image that link crucial details together and show exactly how certain objects are related to each other. (you can still use your beloved letters). Additional lines are much more convincing than just letters, because the lines show if the location of the objects (letters) indeed match. I've applied this method to my dump analysis. This showed there were blank spots big enough for additional vehicles. That was later proven by new photos. Just labeling the wrecks was not enough to 'determine' there was something more going on. LOS is a great tool to visually show/prove you got the right location and also narrows down the position of the photographer to an even higher degree. You already did that using the boundaries, but there are plenty of other details that are at least as interesting. * BTW, that comparison is over 10 years old. Would do it differently today ;-)
Yes Niels; in fact I just noticed that the blue angle of view lines puts the photographer closer to the hedgerow behind him and that seems to be confirmed by the foreground shadow of the hedge in that photograph. There is something very satisfying about been able to place the photographer with this level of precision, especially in a twin photo scenario such as this. Regards, Pat
Thanks Hans, There is just a glimpse of 'Jughead' in the Photosnormandie film #f000157. at time mark 2min 10sec: I would also wonder if the Horsa with its port side wing overhanging the D15 road might not be the one seen in the Kenny L. Knotts Brown Album at top right here? Cannot be sure, but it looks a suitable match in so far as the cut hedge and telephone pole. What do you guys think? Also, in the Kenny L. Knotts Brown Album here, I see there is a zoomable still shot at top left of the second new Horsa now tied to the Pond Field in post #35 of this thread. Don't have time to Photoshop it just now, but anyone able to see a number this time round? Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, All, 1st of all: absolutely great research. WRT the glider in the photo top right in Kenny L Knotts Brown Album and the glider in frame 1014 from sortie US30/4108 I think you are correct. In both pics the port wing 'touches' the right side of the road. And in both pics the port wing at the end of the fuselage seems to reach over the hedgerow until the street pavement begins. Both gliders have on port side the opening into the hull. The port wing reaches well above the street so vehicles can pass by. In frame 1014 you can see vehicles on both side of the glider. At least from what I can see these items are matching well between both pics.
Hi Hans, Many thanks for your observations. The road is certainly wide enough in the Knotts photo for a match with the D15 and there are relatively few candidate Horsas visible on aerial cover with a wing overhanging a road hedgerow like this. Beyond that I cannot be any more sure though. Regards, Pat
A bit more sure now... While looking eastwards here on the D15 from roughly the spot from which the Kenny L. Knotts photo was taken, I see that you can just see the steeple of the church in Sainte Mere Eglise (arrowed red in the screenshot below)... Dangerous to assume, and its very indistinct, but are we seeing the church steeple in the Knotts photo also? :s When using the zoom tool on the US Army Heritage and Education Center site, the feature forms more of a pronounced triangle pointing skyward as you zoom in, making it less likely to be a tree canopy at that distance. BTW, the far hedgerow in the present day maize field (sorry, corn field ) at left in the GM 'street view' is not the one visible behind the Horsa in the Knotts photo. Its been removed to merge two fields together. Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, A very nice detail of the SME church steeple to find that now seems to confirm this location. Great work!
Hi John, We could do with a tree shadow fingerprint of the hedgerow behind the Horsa. However, as far as I know we have no overhead evening or morning cover flown in clear weather. The ever fruitful US7GR 1857 frame 8010 flown in such conditions is not able to help in this instance because of the small scale: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk Just needs that extra tie Regards, Pat
Pat, This is some real good detective work. This group is not too far off the mark where the 82nd AB Artillery Division CP was located. 334964. June 6th, Battery A & B of the 80th AA Btln land at 0405 hours. The two images with the church steeple at SME....nice! Be Well Dave
Hi Dave, If we could just get a fingerprint of that ash stand I would be happy Don't have access to the US Army Heritage and Education Center site just now, but it just occurs to me that Kenny's photo appears to be paired with another one looking in the opposite direction, back towards the jeep driver. If this is the case, then there is a possibility that both photos were taken in quick succession on the same stretch of road. I would also wonder if the two photos were taken by an injured or wounded GI lying on a stretcher as his boot appears in the second shot. Regards, Pat
Hello All, I have been re-reading Mr. Randolph’s narrative and tied to visualize spatially where he may be referring to. I realize that some of his description is generic in distance and location but some things are worth looking at. There are a lot of descriptions of 436th/319th FAB landings that point to the north and east and certainly valid. However, with Mr. Randolph’s reference to places/distances/stations, he may very well have landed south of SME. At this time, I am hesitant to agree with Mr. Randolph on his identifying the “Pond Field” as his landing area. With his description “ D plus 1 we were able to locate our position northeast of a road between Les Forges and Ste Mere-Eglise.”. I have mapped out this information and as shown, the Pond Field is more to the south and east. Add the text from Mr. Randolph, “The battery was ordered to a position one-mile east to support an area between Les Forges and Hiesville.” and the terrific map of glider landings that John Szweda put together (a one mile buffer created), there may be a possible landing site for Mr. Randolph. He spoke of a Waco and at least four Hosas in close proximity to where he landed (two Horsa gliders in the field, his landing and another Horsa coming close by and crashing into the hedgerow). I am now searching the histories for the “command post southwest of Les Forges east of the town of Carquebut”. With the help of a map mentioned by Pat Curran in a different thread (307th AB Med) I placed the Stations in roughly the areas shown on the map referenced in the thread. Is the 307th Station 1, what Mr. Randolph is referring to in “From a near by field hospital we were to accompany twenty-eight "walking wounded"? Could Mr. Randolph’s term “field hospital” be the same in his recollection as Station 1. There may be other field hospitals in this area. I apologize for rambling on, I’m even have to re-read what I wrote to make any sense out of it:blush:. I hope the map will be helpful. Thank you Dave [hr] I'm sorry Pat, I don't know how to link your post about the 307th AB Med Co. to this post. It was very helpful. Thank you Dave [hr] Hello All, Sorry! I have to correct my mistake. I mislabeled on the map "319th FAB" where it should be "82nd AB Division Artillery". There are a few 319th sites inside that layer. I'll have to flush them out soon. Be Well Dave
Hi Dave, Pat and All, I am just wondering if the 'keystone field', or area nearby, could be a landing area for the Horsa gliders of Lt. Thomas Moore's group. Unfortunately there is not much as far as aerial photos of the area and the one from fold3.com doesn't include the entire area. John
Hi Dave, From the context of this, are we to understand that Tipton Randolph is describing his landing location or, might it also mean that they had moved about a bit during the first night and then discovered where they were (following that wandering) on D+1? I think it might easily be the latter, which would keep the 'Pond Field' in play if I am reading things correctly. Having said that, I take John's point that other fields north of the D70 should also be looked at. The LZ W area is heavily populated with gliders, much more than five in many cases. However, we are only seeing the final result of all landings which occurred on the 6th and 7th June; some fields in this area might have had far fewer gliders on the evening of the 6th and therefore fit much better with the Randolph account. Harping back to the Pond Field, I have found two new scenes in this Getty Images film...well one new and the second seen before but not located until now: At time mark 00:26, we have a new angle which includes our first good ground view of the pond The above scene is new to me, but I have seen the footage from which the screenshot below is taken...just never associated it with this field until now: This is the Horsa which we looked at in post #22 of this thread...the one with wide spaced possible '13' marking. I would now wonder if that marking might not be some effort at replicating the marking which we see in this new view of the glider's starboard side nose? IIRC, there is another version of the footage showing this second scene on either British Pathe or Critical Past. Does anyone have the link? Regards, Pat
Hi John, Within this area, two of the big fields just on the north side of the D70 have been 'swept' for us by the footage shot from the 12th June resupply mission. See the 'Resupply Mission Footage Locations' thread for details. Its only a few seconds in length as the aircraft is banking, but I think the footage does confirm that there is no Horsa grouping in either. Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, Interesting question. I re-read Mr.Randolph's narrative and found these couple sentences, " Sgt. Edwards issued orders to blow the tail unload and race to the end of the field. In less than five minutes we were at the end border where we found 12 or more 82nd troopers. Edwards was able to contact his head quarters and was advised to stay put for the remainder of the night." It seems to me he was referring to the landing site when Mr. Randolph and the 82nd troopers " (D +1) our position northeast of a road between Les Forges and Ste Mere-Eglise.” Wish I could get a better image for the horsa. I did a screen capture and will try a "zoom" in. I'm not very good with photoshop but, I'll give it a try. Thank you Pat for the information/images Be Well Dave
Hi Dave, The Getty footage is not the best version I have seen of this Horsa. I am pretty sure there is another one on British Pathe or Critical Past and its long enough such that there is an opportunity to view one still on whichever site its located. Searching... Regards, Pat
Found the BP stills... I had saved them in my 'unknown glider' folder - but without referencing the BP ID number :-/ I could be wrong, but the marking on the nose now looks to be some form of 'Kilroy was here' symbol: What do you guys make of it? Thanks, Pat
Pat, When I do my best to enhance the image, I get what looks like a woman wearing a top and shorts, (or maybe a bikini) sitting with her back towards the canopy and looking over her left shoulder forward and her left arm extended behind her for support. Her right leg is extended and left leg bent at the knee. The arch behind her might be her right arm extending to her legs. What is most difficult is if it is a possible name, or something else above her left arm... That's what I come up with. John
Thanks John, After a couple of attempts, I see now what you see It could be nose art like you describe but I have only ever seen such on powered aircraft. Regards, Pat