Pat, Thats more what I am imagining and I think Niels may agree when he sees it. The only other problems is that they are drawings not done to any scale, as opposed to a scale drawing or even an overlay. the layout is correct but you just got to imagine the island hedgerow starting on the west side of the N13. John
Ok these are all great points and I am starting to hop on the "N13 Route" bandwagon. I was recently basing my challenge on a story that was told me by Paul W while I was with him in Neuville back in 2011. He did admit that the facts hadn't been completley verified but I did use that as a starting point. Below is an excerpt from Time Out for Combat in Otis' own words about the retreat. Also, I have come to realize within the last year that S.L.A.M's statements have to be taken with a grain of salt, especially some of the statements he makes in Night Drop. ************************************************* Mission Accomplished The patrol came back with Lt. Turnbull and members of his platoon by of the road that ran east and west. On our return to Saint-Mere Eglise, I brought up the rear with Lt. Turnbull and we talked. I could hear the Jerries yelling as we walked away. It reminded me of an unfinished baseball game and they were yelling for us to come back and finish it; they were really trying to draw fire to out where we were. There was no need to linger; our mission had been accomplished. We withdrew in a casual way as one would after a day's work. The Lt. filled me in on how he and his men had been partly surrounded and had lost twelve men. I read the book "NIGHT DROP" by S.L.A Marshall, in Chapter 3, page 31, "Turnbull's Platoon", it states, that Vandervoort sent a platoon from Easy Company to speed to Neuville to hold the back door open in case Turnbull's forces still lived." It states again, "Our platoon was missed when 16 troopers with Turnbull, broke out of their partial encirclement and made a dash for St. Mere Eglise." Some may have broken out of their encirclement in a run, as I recall when Lt. Peterson led us back to out company area we were at a normal walk; Jerry was wiping his wounds as far as our platoon was concerned. The book again states "Easy platoon picked up their weapons and ran out of range of the Germans." It may have been a good idea had we been out of ammunition.************************************************** So I am thinking now that Sampson was on the south side of N13, Turnbull on the north side and at some point during the withdrawl they met on N13 and walked back into St. Mere Eglise. I know Ellen Peters said that was the one thing that always upset Otis after Night Drop came out. He always made the comment, "We didn't run back, we WALKED back" -Brian
I have some trouble with the Sampson map. I agree with Brian. The map seems to indicate that E was on the south of Neuville. The name is written on top of the map. And the German advance seem to come from the east. It might as well be my lack of knowledge about this battle. Oh..and Lt. Peterson moved in a straight line from east to west to get the others out.
Hi Hans, Welcome to the forum and good to have fresh eyes here on this thread Otis’s Map does indeed appear to indicate that Lt. Peterson's E Company relief force did not come up square (due west) on Lt. Turnbull's left flank but I do not think this was ever the intention. I would suspect they went as far forward as was practicable in order to give covering fire for Turnbull's withdrawal - that was their mission; they were never intended to bolster Turnbull's left flank in a holding action. Below is an account of the extraction effort by the E Company relief force from page 57 of "Ready" by Allen L. Langdon: The reason I think they choose the ground to the immediate SW of Turnbull's left hand line (and not due west) was because they stopped when they ran into the German flankers who were already after enveloping Turnbull's left hand squad. The E Company men were able to force the German flankers that they had ran into back 'around the corner' of the D Company left hand line but only as far as the laneway marked 2-3; in effect the same line held by Turnbull's left hand squad. Following this push back by the E Company force, the laneway marked 2-3 became the front line until the American withdrawal. Note how Otis has marked in 'Low Hill' and 'Open Area'. I believe these markings were inserted to indicate why a further advance on the western side of the N13 was not possible, nor indeed desirable. There would be no point in exposing the 'relief' to the possibility of encirclement when they were there to help extract Turnbull's men who were already almost surrounded. My thoughts only and I could be wrong Regards, Pat
Hi all, Going back to the Turnbull action at Neuville, I am having a hard time trying to identify the position of where the 57 mm AT gun was. All reports say it was along the side of a house (I think east side of the house) and the sketches seem to be off in my opinion. I am currently looking at RCAHMS aerial photo of US30/4066 6 June frame 2101. The most forward object seems to be a long barn that is part of a complex perdendicular to the N 13. further back near an intersection seems to be the house that fits, but it seems too far back to communicate with the squad that was forward in known positions and any German armor would seem to approach very close to the squad (way too close for comfort). Also the barn would be an obvious barrier for communication with the squad and may even obstruct line of fire. Can someone help me out with this because the aerial seems to complicate the issue for me now. You may need to look at the aerial. Respectfully, John Szweda
Hi John, Where are you looking exactly? I'll zoom in when you point out the house you are looking at. Regards, Pat
Pat, I believe it is the one on the right in the black and white photo. It just seems to far back from Turnbulls squad for communication and defense of the squad that is more forward and unobserved beyond the long barn. I thought the AT gun was on the right side of that house. Doesn't the line of site for the AT gun seem obscurred by the long perpendicular barn as well? I guess if the gun was on the N 13 side it would make more sense, but that isnt the way it seems to be in the night drop sketch. John
John, it may be important to realise the maps in Night Drop are not 100% accurate. Do not trust them without checking! Veterans have expressed problems with Marshall's work at many points as well. The Neuville maps is one of the worst, that also has to do with its 'medieval' design: raised buildings, instead of looking straight down. Even if the gun was on the highway, it would be impossible to draw it there. Another problem: did the buildings at the tip of the arrow 'First German advance', ever exist? Can't find them anywhere.... The map in the combat interviews - which aren't perfect either, but do reflect the original interpretation of the events - does look down straight, and it puts the gun on the N13, basically on the level of the buildings on the left (west) side of the highway. Also don't forget it was Vandervoort who brought the two guns forward, he positioned the AT-guns, not Turnbull. Having the gun in the best possible position is more important than communication with the platoon: shoot if you see enemy vehicles. Also it seems Vandervoort talked to some troopers in the center of the village. Turnbull had reportedly sent two riflemen and a bazooka man back to the center of the village to stop any German armor that broke through the platoon's line. Maybe Vandervoort met with them? Speculation mode on: Assuming they planned on hiding the gun, it would make sense to hide the gun in the shadows and behind cover. Because of th LOS, I guess it was placed against the buildings, and possibly partially shielded by one of them. Placing it below the commerial sign on the left of the photo might well be the best position Neuville offers: possibly shade, and partially shielded by the building while still having a LOS to cover the entire highway. Placing the gun on the right side of the road, means there will never be any shade to hide it anyway. However, much may also depend on the timing. Was there enough time to properly place the gun, or did it have to into action before they could? Speculation mode off. Everything seems to agree Vandervoort left the AT-gun on the N13 at the center of Neuville. Makes sense any way I look at it. Only quesition is where exactly. Aerial photographs may answer that question, but usual accounts do not seem to have enough information. Or maybe Michel DeTrez book on Vandervoort...
Hi Niels, Thanks for your great answer. I guess I got lost in the squad defense and completely overlooked the gun arriving later as a separate defense with Vandervoort. I did read in "Four Stars of Valor" at the top of page 164, that "About noon I went north to Neuville-au-Plain in a jeep with a 57mm antitank gun and gun crew. I told our 57mm crew to go into position on the right of the road where a house offered some concealment..." I also got lost in the assumption that the gun was on the right side of the house on the right too. You are right about the buildings or barns forward on the left side. I dont see them in the aerial either and also wonder if the ever existed or were a bad representation of the farm complex and way too far forward. Respectfully, John Szweda
Hi Everyone, I saw this week (on a social network site) that Brian has made a visit to Normandy with friend Rich, and went on a tour with Paul Woodadge. One of the locations they had visited was the location of Lt. Turnbull's defense at Neuville-au-plain and the location of Lt. Peterson's relief force and Otis Sampson's mortar position. One of the things I believe they decided or theorized was the route of Turnbull's withdrawl which I understand (from Paul's photos) to have been East Southeast out of Neuville along the D15E1 to a dirt track that leads almost due south back into Sainte Mere Eglise. Everything I ever read, seems to imply the N13 was used to get back. Has anybody read or heard about this more roundabout route back? Is it in Otis Sampson's book? I had never heard before that this was the route taken, and to me it brings up many questions... If Turnbull had taken the N13 from SME to Neuville, the route was scouted on the way to Neuville, and communication wire was layed down along the route, why would they not take the most direct or familiar route back? Wouldn't the 57mm gun that was brought up the N13 by Vandervoort have been driven back down the N13? If Lt Peterson was there along the west side of the N13 to support Turnbulls withdrawl, why withdrawl on a less familiar route 400-500 yds away from that support? Especially when Lt. Peterson and Sampson had seemed to greatly reduce the pressure on the left (west) flank, and there was pressure encircling on the right (east) and even some Germans getting into the houses in that area to the east. Wouldn't Lt Peterson and Otis Sampson also have pulled back along the most direct route, especially carrying a mortar? If Robert Niland had volunteered to cover the withdrawal from a position at the N13 where Niland was killed, why would the withdrawal not be down the N13? I'm just thinking out loud, and I hope if someone knows more of the story and about the route taken they can share. I also hope that Brian or Paul Woodadge can share some of the details. Respectfully, John Szweda
Hello John, Many years ago, 2005 or 2006, maybe before, we went up to Neuville, that is Paul, Dale, Nigel Stewart, Geert van den Bogaert and myself to look into Turnbull's actions. I can't remember what sources we had, but some of us concluded that the barn down the D15E1 was where they had fallen back to, and possibly from where Niland covered their withdrawal. From Paul's postings I think the latter conclusion is now defunct, so it does beg the question as you say why use that road? Since then, my attention in Neuville has been more towards the 7th June, so I haven't really looked back into this for a while. I feel a day out coming up, though... Cheers, Sean
Hi Guys, My two cents worth: I can see a good reason not to use the N13 - from Neuville au Plain to the northern outskirts of Sainte Mere Eglise is over two thousand yards of straight road, every inch of which would be in sight of an MG42 gunner setup on the N13 at Neuville once Niland had been overcome. Even the roadside gullies would not have afforded any cover as they would been running parallel to the road. Far better to cut into the small fields where expose to fire from the rear of the withdrawing force would be limited to the width of each field to be crossed. Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, I did consider that the long straight roadway of the N13 may be a problem, but as we know Lt Peterson's relief force kind of made their approach off to the left (west) side of the N13 through the fields to where they set up. Plus I believe the ground and the N13 gently slopes down from the area around Neuville to the north, which is part of the reason that Turnbull choose the location for his defense. Maybe Turnbull would have made a simular exit through the fields along the N13 for at least part of the withdrawal. I just don't know how Lt Peterson could have fired on anything right (east) of the N13 that would have supported the withdrawal with the town and farm buildings on that side. I'd really like to learn more about this... John
Hi John, The covering fire from the USS Nevada may well have stunned the Germans attacking Turnbull's positions but it depends on how soon after the fall of shot he withdrew his group. I suspect there was a delay in the period between when Vandervoort called for the fire and when it arrived which was sufficient to allow the forward German units to avoid being hit. The only impact scars we have found are those pointed out by Niels on the 1947 IGN cover at the bottom of the slope leading northwards out of Neuville au Plain. Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, There were actually Two fire missions fired in support of Lt Turnbull's actions around Neuville au plain. The first fire mission was identified as mission 18A at 21:44 by Nevada and was targeted on grid coordinance 337991 and Identified as a troop concentration. When plotted, this maps out to be on the N13 and about two hedgerows north of Turnbulls defensive position. (On google maps near where the words Le Brocq are) It was a two gun - 9 salvo mission for a total of 18 rounds. The second fire mission was identified as mission 18B at 22:02 by Nevada and was targeted on grid coordinance 335997 and Identified as a enemy concentration, tanks, and field artillery. When plotted, this maps out to just northeast of the N13 where it intersects with the D269. It was also a two gun - 9 salvo mission for a total of 18 rounds. John
First of all: just notice the time of those salvos. Seems long after the time an attack on SME would have a chance of success before dark. Secondly: at what time did the group actually retreat from Neuville? Does that really match the times of the shellings? BTW: If everything goes according to plan I'll examine the logs of the Dutch gun boat Soemba in the Dutch military archives later this month (renovation has been completed). It also fired in support of the Neuville fighting, although this may well have been 7 June. The logs will have to tell. If anyone needs specific information regarding dutch troops, I could try finding it as well.
John, I recall looking for the results of fire mission 18A at the bridge carrying the N13 over the 'Le Brocq' creek but could never see anything on the 1947 IGN cover. That may be due to the soft ground and the holes filling with water and marsh grass during the intervening three years. Fire mission 18B I take to be the field which Niels found at the D269 (Fresville) junction (NE quadrant). I'll bet there is 'missing' reconnaissance cover for this area but the shell holes probably caught the eye of someone before the prints were archived. (I'm very bad minded ) Niels, If you get the chance, can you obtain the coordinates of the Soemba's assigned station for D-Day please? I would also be interested to know how she won her fame for outstanding gunnery during the invasion of Sicily. This feat of arms resulted in her being picked for fire support during the Normandy invasion. Thanks Niels, Pat