Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry in Normandy

Discussion in 'British & Commonwealth' started by Pat Curran, Jul 21, 2014.

  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Active Member
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    Thanks Allan,

    Rather a lot of very impressive finds!

    I particularly liked: http://www3.sympatico.ca/angels_eight/campaign.html

    As it was something I'd been "hankering" after for sometime and was dreading the prospect that I might have to try to "make" something like this "for myself" !

    It's a shame that there isn't a slider at the bottom of the map (with a play and pause function) though so that you can move it to a day you want to focus on - rather than having it on a loop.

    Still it looks like this webpage was "last" updated back in 2002!!!! That's probably one of the "oldest "untouched" webpages" I know!!!

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
  2. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Hello Rm

    Pleased to help - the benefit of this illustrious forum. With regard to the campaign map, I agree - it could do with a play and pause function, but it is brilliant, especially when you realise just how long ago that it, and the Spitfire cutaway page, were designed, and what is probably available now to improve things.

    Did you look at the link that Pat has now put on his noticeboard as it is a good illustration of where various symbols appear on British armour, and their meaning.

    I wish that I could find one for the US equivalent, as I am sure that one must exist out there - somewhere!

    regards

    Allan
     
  3. sirjahn

    sirjahn Active Member
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    As I recall US vehicles didn't go for the symbology IDs of UK vehicles. As you face the front or rear of a vehicle the major formation ID was on the left bumper position ie. 3AD-37AR (3rd Armored Division 37th Armored Regiment) and the right bumper position was the company and platoon vehicle ID ie. 1HQ-106 (1st Battalion Headquarters Company 1st Platoon vehicle number 6). Usually odd numbers were reserved for trailers for an even numbered towing vehicle, ie. 105 was the trailer for vehicle 104. For some reason vehicle number 6 is traditionally the commanders vehicle and 8 the XO at company and battalion level. It is usually the same for their radio call sign, ie. Sapsucker 6 for a company commander on the Sapsucker radio net.

    From the flank near the front is usually just the vehicle serial number either on the hull, hood or sometimes the turret.

    Any decoration like names, teeth or cartoons were at the discretion of the commanders and not official. Sometimes a triangle was substituted for AR in the ID.

    At least that is what it was when I was in the Army.
     
  4. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Thanks for the information - I suppose any spies knew immediately what they were looking at for the US side, and the British side gave them a nice set of symbols and numbers for the same result!!

    Allan
     
  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Active Member
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    I think the point about "spies" was well put ;-) Never quite sure who all these symbols were actually for. The driver could see little and the tank commaders usually tried not to get too close to neighbouring tanks - in case these got "brewed up". The tank crews seemed to use these symbols most when on parade or when "freshly" setting out on an op, but whenever they could as soon as they could they camouflaged, disguised (and though usual use - covered everything in dust and mud!)

    So all too often: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205206279
    Since this is a 28th August this might just be the SRY. (or perhaps another regiment of the 8th Armoured Brigade)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Airborne_Division_advance_to_the_River_Seine#/media/File:1st_Canadian_Army_advance_in_Normandy.jpg

    You'd be lucky to know who or what you were facing (in the case of the disguised barrel on the firefly's they worked equally hard to make the barrel "look short".

    I tried to get an idea whether British troops were trained to recognise German tank symbols, or whether the Germans were actually trained to take out the HQ tanks or pick off the more "senior" crewed "officered" tanks (some of the command tanks even hand two prominent aerials instead of just 1!). At first I thought that there might be some seniority in squadrons A --> B --> C but apparently they were all deemed "equal" and rotated "as equally as possible" in use. Even though for the 24th L for example the KIA's seemed to come first mostly in A then B whereas C's losses were more spread out across the campaign, almost as though A was first choice, B second and C a kind of strategic reserve used to fill gaps when and where these occurred. I was trying to understand how replacements were worked also, as if a squad lost a lot of old hands did it make sense to fill all these gaps with raw recruits or take some vets from the other squads to fill some gaps first and spread out the recruits/raw replacements more evenly that way. It seemed to make sense to be flexible as some actions could cost a particular squad most of their tanks and cost many of their crews, but it never seemed to take long before these gaps were "filled" and the squads were being thrust back into the fights. Calling them "squadrons" almost makes it seem like they were emulating the RAF in form there, though perhaps equally this all links back to the cavalry regiments from which the tank regiments were sprung?

    Rm.
     
  6. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Hello Rm

    As far as I am aware the armoured regiments mimicked the cavalry by using squadrons and troops.

    Somewhere I read that an armoured cavalry regiment couldn't wait for the war to end and then they could get back to their horses and real soldiering, no doubt echoed in other units as well, who couldn't wait to get rid of these wartime emergency commissions etc. etc. and getting back to proper gentlemen as officers.

    Allan
     
  7. sirjahn

    sirjahn Active Member
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    The rule of thumb in the 1970's and 80's was if it was shooting at you shoot back and scoot. If not under fire and you saw multiple targets look for the guy with the most antennas or flags and shoot him even if it wasn't a tank.
     
  8. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    I know that several command tanks were fitted with a wooden gun barrel, because that then meant they had more space inside the turret for command and control radio links, noticeable of course by several antennas. Not too much help if the enemy turned up with a real gun though!!

    After looking at the Sherman Firefly, with camouflaged gun, crossing the Seine at Vernon I took a look at some of the other photos of that crossing as that is the way that Dad went with 125 Wing.

    This then led to a deeper search and I came across this one.

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205205958

    Sherman tanks of the 4/7th Dragoon Guards, 8th Armoured Brigade, waiting to go into action near Rauray, 28 June 1944. and links on that picture give more on both 4/7th Dragoon Guards and 8th Armoured Brigade, mainly film and picturess of other periods, but a few of Normandy.

    Allan
     
  9. Ramiles

    Ramiles Active Member
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    Yes,

    This one at least: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205206279
    Sherman tanks crossing a Bailey bridge over the Seine at Vernon, 28 August 1944.

    Seems very likely to be #17 on here: http://vernon-visite.org/rgb3/seine3_1944.shtml
    [17]August 27 in the evening: the 4th / 7th Royal Dragoon Guards tanks on the bridge (view from Vernonnet) : http://vernon-visite.org/pics/autre/crossing5.jpg

    Though far, far lower quality the Vernon-viste pic actually shows a whole lot more. The IWM pic is a very, very truncated / trimmed down version of it. Normally I thought people got their pics from the IWM and fiddled with them and trimmed them down to lose info, not the other way around.

    There has to be a reason why the IWM has such a slimmed down pic without the 4/7th detail in their description there?

    Perhaps they were used to sell the 8th Armoured brigade crossing and just wanted to show a "generic" tank - the Vernon-viste pic also shows much more of the devastated town and old bridge - and if anything the chap smiling looks more incongruous there - what's he so happy about - he's driving through hell!!! Not a publicity snap for the folks back in blighty really! (the wider vernon-viste one that is)

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
  10. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Thanks Rm - A very good link with some good pictures there - pity they are not as clear as the IWM version, but not being truncated you can see a lot more now, and it is personally interesting to see more of what Dad crossed all those years back in his Bedford 3 tonner.

    regards

    Allan
     
  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Active Member
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    This is a further addition to the "tale of the battle" around Vernon:
    http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/h_vernon

    Which I am trying to read through to see what it was that the SRY actually got up to there.... ;-)

    Sherman tanks crossing a bridge over the Seine at Vernon, 28 August 1944
    http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collection/detail.php?acc=1985-10-134-2

    Again I'm wondering if these are the Hussars, the RDGs or the SRY.

    Nice view from the otherside though this time, with the hills and what looks like a snaking trail up them to some sort of pass.

    Not a scary prospect at all.... ;-)

    Rm.
     
  12. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Hi All,

    I have been reading Jennie Gray's 'This is War!' based on the diaries of British Army journalist Major Anthony Cotterell, who was with the Sherwood Rangers in Normandy.

    Major Cotterell reached the SRY tank crew to which he was assigned on the 8th June. The book chronicles two particular periods during June - his quest to find the SRY commencing on the 7th and subsequent localised action witnessed around Brecy on the 8th/9th June, then we see him in action later in June during the Battle of Fontenay le Presnel, which as I understand matters, was part of Operation Epsom.

    The SRY tank to which Major Cotterell was assigned appears to have been one of B Squadron's mounts, commanded by Lance Corporal Cook, which surprised me when I first read the account as my understanding is that the lowest rank of British tank commander was Sergeant. The tank is also described as being a 'reserve' tank and thereby having a crew of four instead of the more usual five - the spare seat being the co-driver's position. This is where Anthony Cotterell experienced tank warfare in Normandy at first hand.

    His prose is described by the author as being:

    Several examples of this quality appear during the journey to find 8th Armoured Brigade on the 7th 8th June. Here is the start of the journey from Gold Beach inland in search of the SRY:

    Eventually the RAF truck arrives in Crepon and Anthony finds a squadron of nine flail tanks parked on open ground.

    The night of 7th/8th June was spent with the flail squadron, which had parked up 'in harbour' with the tanks on the outside of a box formation and the soft skinned vehicles on the inside for protection.

    The tanks moved off at 6:30am on the morning of the 8th and progress appears to have been very much a 'stop/start' venture, with accounts of tanks getting caught on the corners of buildings and others having to knock down telephone poles to get past.

    At one of these many stops, a lone British tank comes up a side road also looking for 8th Armoured Brigade. Anthony Cotterell once more changes transport and gets a lift on the back of the lone tank. Eventually, after many detours, the tank reaches Brigade Headquarters.

    If Stuart Hills spent three days getting his new tank ready following the night of the 7th June on the beach, its unlikely that it was his tank which delivered Anthony Cotterell to 8th Armoured Brigade...but that's assuming both men have their dates correct :D

    The arrival at Brigade HQ is described thus:

    More follows...

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  13. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Thanks Pat, surprised that you were surprised about the corporal being a tank commander.

    Regards

    Allan
     
  14. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Hi Allan,

    I don't know if this link to a page in the book will work indefinitely, but the last paragraph has some notes by the author trying to shed light on Anthony's papers relating to the four members of the tank crew.

    It would be great if we could confirm the full names.

    Anthony Cotterell disappeared while a PoW after the Arnhem battle, along with two note books he had with him in Holland. The story goes that he was shot by a panicky German guard on a truck when two others jumped off. It is said he survived but later died in hospital but his body has never been found.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  15. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Hello Pat - IIRC he was shot, along with a BBC war correspondent, and possibly more, when Tony Hibbert, a para brigade major who was at the bridge, and another man jumped off a truck and got away. Hibbert got home and, much later, opened Trebah gardens down here in Cornwall. The place was one of the launch points for the US 29th Division en-route to Omaha beach, and is well worth a visit. Apparently their guard had warned the POW's about giving the V to Dutch civilians, and they were winding him up as well, so when an escape took place when the truck slowed down he turned his gun on the people still in the truck. The link is not valid any more.

    Allan
    [hr]
    Trying to find more details about the shooting in my copy of "War Report D-day to VE-day", dispatches of the BBC war correspondents, and is a good read, but no joy at present, more if I do. ISBN 0-563-20421-4
    [hr]
    Now found the names of the BBC correspondents killed, but they were killed when their bombers were shot down, one with the RAF and one with the USAAF, so must have been a newspaper correspondent and a bit harder to track down.

    More if I find it !!

    Allan
    [hr]
    Found it - Cotterell was the correspondent shot by the SS guard!!
     
  16. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Hi Allen,

    When he was conscripted in 1940, Anthony was a reporter with the Daily Express. He was shot in or close to the Dutch village of Brummen and treated at a German dressing station in Zutphen, where he mysteriously disappeared.

    Two map references are given in the diary extracts after he finally joined 8th Armoured Brigade on the 8th June. I was initially dubious that these would be accurate until I read the author's footnotes on page 158:

    Note the last two sentences; I think we can depend on the forthcoming map references :D

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  17. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    To continue...

    Almost immediately following Anthony Cotterell's arrival at 8th Armoured Brigade, orders were received to advance. With Anthony in the co-driver's seat, Lance Corporal Cook's tank, together with the others, arrived at the Brigade's new location. A map reference of 876778 is quoted for this field, which I take to be a midway point on a line between the villages of Brecy and Rucqueville.

    Shortly after 8:00pm the Brigade moved again a short distance as described in the diary thus:

    No map coordinates are given for this last stop on the evening of the 8th June, but its interesting to speculate if the 'harbour' might have been on the right of the D82 road between Rucqueville and Martragny, as this Google Maps 'street view' seems to suggest down sloping ground is present to the west of the D82 between these two villages.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  18. allan125

    allan125 Active Member
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    Thanks Pat, I have always had an interest in Tilly as Dad was at B.19 Lingevres, the cornfields that I visited last year. Dad described his move to B.19 from B.11 as how in August "we moved to near what was left (not much) of Tilly-sur-Seulles where we stayed until the breakout."

    Seems a good book

    Cheers

    Allan
     
  19. Ramiles

    Ramiles Active Member
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    #59 Ramiles, Feb 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    Not sure if people are aware of Karl's FB page over at: The Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry 1939-1945

    With plenty of posts and pictures etc.

    Also recently viewed the scrolling images / virtual tour at the
    QRLNY Museum

    Albeit they have a lot of history to cover, and what with the Regimental amalgamations etc. it might be best to download the pdf - as for me at least - it was a case of blink and you might miss it for the SRY in Normandy there ;-)

    http://www.qrlnymuseum.co.uk/tourpdf.pdf

    All the best,

    Rm.
     

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