The Horsas at the crossroads of d115 & d913

Discussion in 'Troop Carrier & Glider' started by Jonesy, Nov 27, 2014.

  1. RhysArmstrong

    Guest

    John is correct. I wasn't sure about the copyright rules for posting from Fold 3. However, I posted because the trees look identical to the ones in the above picture of the R15 Horsa Jonesy posted above.
     
  2. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi Neil,
    Jeffrey mentioned a broken up Horsa with some similar strange trees and that's why I posted the link to the other one.
    As we view more and more locations, we might eventually find a tree pattern.

    John
     
  3. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Hi All,

    I have located another version of the footage showing the new gliders in the 2nd field in from the crossroads on the DDay-Overlord YouTube Channel here. Being compressed for web use, its not a huge improvement on the Combat Reels footage, but I have done a bit of Photoshopping on the scene with the wooden 'square' and extracted this close up of the nearest Horsa:
    [​IMG]

    You need to be careful in drawing conclusions when the original pixels are already compressed before any PS enhancements are undertaken, but nevertheless I cannot see any other possibility than '11' for the chalk number.

    What do you guys think?

    Thanks,

    Pat
     
  4. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    I'm not 100% convinced but I agree that it does look like a figure 11 during most of the footage then at times I think I see the outline of an E.

    Hard one to judge.
     
  5. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi Guys,

    Could this be the one that was previously nose down, but is now tail heavy? Or is it the other one in the field?
    I notice the front wheel is missing, or I at least don't see it.
    I also might be able to argue that some of the tree pattern in Pats post#16 of this thread may match as well.
    I also see a horsa tail in the field to the left background.

    http://www.dday-overlord.com/img/archives/manche/sainte_mere_eglise/16_sainte_mere_eglise_1944_bataille_normandie.jpg

    John
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Hi John,

    I am not sure; for your cow photo of 'E1' to work with my 'B' Horsa, it would have to have been taken with the photographer looking south eastwards along the long axis of the field, or perhaps a smidgen more to the eastern side of that field, looking toward the 'F' feature in the crossroads field.

    I see no tail that far south in the crossroads field...

    However, for my A and B line-of-sights to be solid, both those Horsas must be pointing towards the NE corner of the 2nd field in from the crossroads. This is not yet confirmed, as we need a high resolution frame from sortie 140/334.

    Still awaiting the delivery of the Sortie Index Plot from NCAP :rolleyes:

    In relation to the front wheel, I think its there, in place and undamaged. Its just that the weight of the glider is on the two main wheels, giving the impression that the nose is raised.

    I could be wrong though :D

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  7. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    I'm looking at the high-res copy of Horsa E1 and the nose wheel has definitely sheared off.
    [hr]
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Hi Neil,

    Yes, on E1 it is missing, but I thought John was referring to the front wheel of the glider here:
    [​IMG]

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  9. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi Guys,

    Just for comparison, here are the two treelines that I am wondering if they match.
    Maybe Pat can insert them better for me. :)

    John
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    John,

    I don't think the treeline matches. The trees you've marked as 4 & 5 in the Pathe still are leaning in towards each other. In the Signal Corps photo they are leaning away from each other.
     
  11. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi Neil,

    One thing you have to consider though is that you are looking at them from different angles roughly about 90 degrees in variation. What may look like trees leaning away can put them in line from a different angle.
    Also notice the little bumps on tree 6, and fuller trees of 1 and 2.
    I think lots in common here.

    John
     
  12. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    John, you're right and I shouldn't dismiss your theory yet. I'll keep going backwards and forwards between the two screenshots to see if I can be convinced.

    A couple of months ago these two photographs appeared on Ebay. I'm kicking myself for not buying them but at least I saved the photos. I don't think they add anything extra to our research but at least it's more photographs of our two favourite Horsas at the Crossroads.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  13. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Neil,
    A little more to my theory with the ebay photos added... tree 5 has a fuller top than tree 4.

    John
     
  14. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    The angle that E1 is at compared to the hedgerow behind it in the SC photo doesn't match the aerial photo but it could have been moved.
     
  15. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Hi Guys,

    I would expect to see the trimmed hedgerow visible through the two gaps in the Signal Corps photo to be much further away if its the hedge along the D115. The ground should also be sloping down towards that hedge, which appears to have a tent pitched at or near it.

    For this tie up to work, the twin trees 1 and 2 in the BP still #321 must match the two marked thus in John's mark up of the Signal Corps photo of E1. I think the crowns are different but as John says the two views are from very different angles if indeed the E1 photo is taken in the 2nd field in from the crossroads.

    Interesting you should mention post landing movement of the glider Neil. A thought occurred to me last night - how do you move a Horsa with its nose down on a detached front wheel? The only way I can see would be to pull it backwards...which might, depending on how its balanced, account for the tail down position we see in the Signal Corps photo of E1.

    Just my two cents worth...

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  16. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    Here's our collapsed Horsa.

    [​IMG]

    Image from private collection of Jon Lavin.
     
  17. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Great find Neil :D

    Is it possible to post the remainder of the photo, watermarked if required.

    Thanks for this portion in any case.

    Regards,

    Pat
     
  18. Jonesy

    Jonesy Active Member
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    Nov 23, 2014
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    I'm afraid not Pat. This guy allegedly has a large collection of photographs of crashed gliders but will not share them. He's a pure collector and he believes that by not sharing the content, they will fetch a large sum of money when he eventually sells them as they would not have been seen before.
     
  19. John Szweda

    John Szweda Administrator
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    Oct 25, 2012
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    Hi Guys,

    I had thought it before, but many were doubtful about the tree line, but the Horsa that is now tail heavy was the one closest to the trees to the east and not the one missing the nose gear. I just couldn't account for the missing nose gear on the photo, or why it would now be missing. I see nothing behind the cows.
    In my confident opinion, this puts the Horsas in order from west to east as E2, E1, then R15 and E3 in the adjoining east field.

    John
     
  20. Pat Curran

    Pat Curran Administrator
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    Oct 20, 2012
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    Hi John,

    Still not sure about E1...I must have a look at the cows in the R15 photo; it should be the same herd if your location for that glider is correct :D

    Regards,

    Pat
     

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